The Last Of Sheila

This week on "That '70s Movie Podcast," Jonathan and Michael try to solve the mystery of the 1973 whodunit, "The Last of Sheila."

This is our first bonus episode and also a long-lost podcast that we recorded last year! We both agreed that while "The Last of Sheila" is not necessarily "great cinema," it's a ton of fun, with great performances from James Coburn, Dyan Cannon, Richard Benjamin, and, of course, Mr. James Mason. We also discussed the evolution of the whodunit film and asked if this is one of the most cynical films ever made (it's certainly in the discussion).

So grab your note cards, watch out for propellers, and come join us on the latest episode of "That '70s Movie Podcast"

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Two hours to game time, gang. Let me describe the weeks in a change. As a matter of fact, it's healing. Except you were homesick in Santa Barbara. No, I was homesick of Santa Barbara. I like any game where you just have it for this one. Well, it's sort of I call it the Sheila Green Memorial Gossip Game. I haven't even described it yet.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Welcome everybody to the latest episode of That 70s Movie Podcast. And I am thrilled to be joined again by my friend Jonathan Kirshner as we talk about a wonderful 70s Who-Done It mystery called The Last of Sheila. Jonathan, how are you doing? I'm good. How are you? I'm hanging in there. Have you seen any good movies recently?

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Well, we've just watched The Last of Sheila.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Hey, you want to talk about it? Sure. Actually, I'll give a shout-out to something I saw. I just watched a movie called The P called Past Lives, but got nominated for an Oscar a couple years ago. Wonderful movie. I highly recommend it to all the viewers out there who want something more recent. But that is for another day. Today we're talking about The Last of Sheila. It is a Who-Done It Mystery, starring a who's who of 70s actors. Richard Benjamin, Diane Cannon, James Coburn, Joan Hackett, James Mason, Ian McShane, and the lovely Raquel Welch. Well, bitch. We'll get to that in a second. It's directed by Herbert Ross, who is a prolific, I think, director, uh directed among other movies Footloose. It was written by Anthony Perkins and Stephen Sonnheim, which is a truly fascinating and unexpected pairing. And the movie was inspired by an elaborate set of real-life scavenger hunts that Sonnheim and Perkins arranged for their show Business Friends. Become something like a cult classic over the years, even though it didn't do very well at the box office. And in fact, it was cited by director Ryan Johnson as inspiration for his 2019 film uh Knives Out and its sequel, Glass Onion. The first one was better than the second one, in my opinion. It was not nominated for any Academy Awards, not on any list of uh best movies, but it did win the 1974 Edgar Award for Best Motion Picture from the Mystery Writers of America. So I ask you again, what say you, Jonathan? Is this a good movie? Is this a great movie, or is this a bad movie?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

It is a pleasant summer div diversion. Okay. I enjoy I enjoy it. It's fun. It's fun to see the people. I would I would definitely not call it a great movie. I think it's fair to call it a good movie, because you know, it is, it is, it is an evening's entertainment. And and even though I often uh say that in a negative way, there's nothing wrong with an evening's entertainment. Uh absolutely the cast is is delightful and you know it's a puzzle movie, and the puzzle is well executed. You go back and watch it a second time, and the pieces are there for you uh very nicely, and it can, you know, you can you can play along as you do it. Puzzle movies are limited in their appeal because even though I always insist you need to watch movies over and over and over again, with a really good puzzle movie, the thrill is in solving the puzzle, and once you've solved it, you go back the second time to see did they really give you all the clues? And in this movie, you say, yes, they really gave me all the clues. Uh, but then would I want to see the third time? I'm I'm saying no.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I've seen this. I've seen it when I was first as a kid. My parents loved this movie, and and I loved it as a kid, and I see it multiple times. I do enjoy it. I think it's really well done. Seeing it now, you can sort of understand all the ways in which it reveals itself as the movie goes along. Um, but this to me is an interesting movie because it's sort of like a who-done it before whodunits became ubiquitous in American movies. What's also sort of striking about this movie is that it is one of the most cynical movies, I think I have I've maybe not ever seen, but it's in the conversation for most cynical movies. Its take on the personalities and egos that were dominant in Hollywood is, I would say, um, harsh. I I heard one reviewer called a bitchy movie, which I think is actually kind of correct. Um, and you know, Stevenson and I'm a famous musical uh compos uh composer and Anthony Perkins, who of course was Norman Bates' psycho, uh, they take an opportunity of this movie to go after every single part of the Hollywood infrastructure. They go after the producer, who is played uh in this movie by James Coburn, um, in a wonderful performance. He's always good. Uh, the director, James Mason, in this movie, the agent, who's played by Diane Cannon, in a role that was modeled after a very famous um talent agent named Sue Mengers, who actually was initially offered the role and then turned it over to uh Canon. It's also uh he goes after the writer, played by Richard Benjamin in this movie, who I think is a stretch as a lead, can find that more in a second, and then the Starlets, uh, which Rubis Raquel Welch. They're all just very scummy people. Of course, the irony is that, and I'm gonna put a spoiler in here, you haven't seen the movie, you might not want to listen to the rest of this. Here's a spoiler the one person who's not a Hollywood person turns out to be the murderer. And so the movie starts off with the death of Sheila, a gossip columnist. She's married to James Coburn. She is um killed in a hit-in-run accident by what appears to be a drunk driver, or as Diane Cannon says it, she gets bumped through the shrubs, the bushes, I think is how she put it. Um and then a year later, everybody comes to this boat that uh her husband Clinton has rented off the coast of the south of France, and he's playing a game with them. He likes to play these various games. And they all get a card, which is a certain uh uh crime they've committed. Um shoplifter sin, I guess you could say. Shoplifter, homosexual, ex-convict, informer, little child molester, which is important, and alcoholic. And the uh important thing is to find out who has each card. And um the movie holds a series of games, and then the second game, Clinton, the guy who's sort of running this whole operation, is murdered. And then we sort of uh uncover from there who the murderer actually is. And as I said, it's sort of a very cynical movie. Do you think we should draw any significance from a 70s perspective about how cynical a movie this is?

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Sure. I mean, I d uh without knowing if this is true, I really think that the movie uh reflects Anthony Perkins' own bitterness about his experiences in Hollywood. And so I think that the deeply cynical aspects of the movie, both in in its portrayal of many of these characters, producer, director, writer, agent in particular, um, but also the you know, the extremely cynical uh way the movie ends, I think does would be consistent with Anthony Perkinson's attitudes about the industry, which he held in very low esteem. I mean, Anthony Perkins was a closeted homosexual actor, and like many people, was embittered by his experiences, you know, closeted, uncloseted, or straight uh with the Hollywood production system. But I think that gave it an even harder edge to his own own experiences. But, you know, uh so so it's it's deeply cynical, it's it's tough on its characters, but really it's just a lot of fun. I mean, the you know any movie with Mr. James Mason, as Eddie Izzard might have put it, uh, you know, can't be all bad. He's he's a real treat. Um, I think I hold Richard Benjamin in slightly higher esteem than you do. James Colburn is is tends to be irresistible in in roles uh that he that he plays. Um I think we also disagree slightly on Diane Cannon, who I think is a very capable actor, and I always enjoy her presence. No, no, no. I I love her in this movie. Okay, good. Then we're not disagreeing about her. I think she's great. So, you know, there's a lot and and the and the puzzle is extremely well structured. And also they do that thing that a good puzzle movie does, which is if you go back the second time, it's just the the the clues are falling like raindrops. There's the you know, you mentioned that one of the sins was alcoholism, and that there's a the a little play on that particular sin. So we're we in the audience aren't certain about that one. But invariably, whenever that clue might be primed, we are we see an alcoholic beverage prominently placed in the camera, even though we don't know at that moment that that is indeed one of one of the sins. So again, they're they're it's they're putting it out right out there for us. Uh time and time again. Uh you you when you watch it the first time, you can't possibly know the meaning of those clues. So it does a it does a really nice job. It's more than a puzzle movie. It's almost like a Rubik's Cube of a movie, because they're all of the kind of the sins and the puzzles and the clues are interlocking with the characters in a way.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Well, I think what's here's the thing I thought I thought that sort of jumps out to me about this movie. There are six sins I mentioned: shoplifter, homosexual, ex-convict, little child molester, and alcoholic. Now, t uh the idea that shoplifter is on somehow the same moral plane as little child molester is weird. Let's be honest about that. It's a little bit surprising. And also homosexual, not necessarily a not necessarily is not a sin, right? Oh, I guess unless you're a you know a religious zealot, but it's not a sin. And so it's interesting that like those are presented as being equal to each other. In fact, you mentioned James Mason, who is wonderful in this movie as he is in every movie, and he plays the Hercule Prolevel. He solves the mystery at the end. Um, but what is sort of glossed over in the movie is that he is the little child molester. Each of the persons has a different card, but they each somebody, each each character has committed one of these sins. And he is a little child molester, and for somehow this is not considered to be a uh controversial thing at the time.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

No, and it's it's kind of played for laughs. Um it is played for laughs. Yeah, which is, you know, which is a moment in which the movie is perhaps showing its age a bit. Yes. But I do think um homosexual, what is it, 73? Um would have been would have been uh kind of fermenting a deep dark secret um at that time. And so I don't think so I I so you know, I I'm not as surprised by that one. I do I you do watch it and and you know you say, wait a minute, you know, shoplifter and little trauma lister? Are these are these really two classifications? Exactly. Exactly. But he had to work he had to work with the material he had. For me, of course, the most interesting one is Informer, uh, and which the which is uh which is a sin and in which the agent character uh confesses to as they're each serially uh taking control over the sins that have been assigned to the group you know writ large and you don't know whose sin belongs to whom, and she really invokes the Hollywood blacklist and how she participated in that. I thought that was uh a pretty cool move uh by the movie to do that.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Aaron Powell Although I have to say the timing doesn't make sense to me because she's she's like this is like 73. Yeah. And it that the blacklist was like 20 years earlier, and she looks like she's in her 30s, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

So I think Well, you know, that is the magic of the movies, but she did say that it was when she was working as an entry-level position, right, as a secretary in one of the big agencies, and she could have access to things. And so, yes, the the character is supposed to be a little more, as I say in Hollywood, seasoned uh than the performer is, who is, you know, y young and beautiful, and so that the timing doesn't make sense. But I think it's such a great uh clue, uh, both for an informer and also to give a little depth to that particular sin. I mean, I've always thought it was it was the most interesting sin uh of of the of the sins that they gave us.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yes, it is, and uh it is kind of. And I think it's although it's in some ways taken as as worse than than James Mason, who's the little child molester. Uh by the way, of course, there's a great moment that and that it's it's um it's not big child molester, little child molester, which is important because each of the sins as spelled out spells the name Sheila. Yes. I mean, I I don't know how the chances that you would be able to find six sins that would of of these individuals that would also allow you to spell the name of your dead ex-wife is pretty hard to imagine, but nonetheless, it's you know it's part you have to play along with it. And uh what's interesting about the movie is that you can literally solve the movie not just from like what happens in the movie, but from the uh title of the movie, The Last of Sheila. And what's interesting what happens in the movie is Richard Benjamin's character, who's the bad guy, he replaces Alcoholic with hit and run killer, as if to suggest that that Clinton, the producer, is trying to figure out or trying to uh identify uh or uh you know uh who killed his his wife, Sheila. As Richard Benjamin knows, it's actually his wife who killed Sheila. He actually wants Clinton to be dead, and he also wants to kill his wife because he he's gonna inherit lots of money from her because she is a very wealthy heiress. So he's sort of the sociopath of the movie, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Yes. And as you've dispensed with spoiler alerts, I I do want to really pat the movie on the back for how well it gives us all the clues we need, because Mason, when he confronts Benjamin, says, You m you know the mistake you made was when you crumpled your card. Right. And if you watch the movie a second time, you you you look for it. And he does. He crumples the card and tosses it. So when you have when you see six pristine cards, you know that one of those cards is fake because all s none of the six have been crumpled. And therefore, that that's that's what I mean. Mason is is wonderful throughout the line you mentioned is is one of the best in the movies, you know, uh saying, you know, little child molester in contrast to what? A big child molester. Big child molester, exactly. You know, the sinister child molester.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

But in that the movie is that it's revealed at the end. Mason, as I said, plays a part role. He figures out that what happens, that Lee did in fact uh that Lee is Richard Benjamin's wife. She did in fact kill um uh well, she thinks she killed Clinton, but in reality, her husband had killed him before and pretended to be Clinton and then sort of talked her into this rage in which she kills Clinton, thinking thinking and she thinks she has killed him because he's already dead.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

And if you if you watch Dead Clinton in the second time you watch it, he does the eyes are dead. Um you don't notice it the first time, though, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

And of course, you also notice that Richard Benjamin does this uh Clinton impression early in the film, which he then does that impression again. Yeah, very very good impression too, actually. Um so I yeah, so and and then of course at the end we find out so we find out that he he killed Clinton, he made it look like Lee did it, and then he killed Lee, made it look like a suicide.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

And this is revealed, and no one seems bothered by it. In fact, one of my favorite moments of the entire film is that Richard Brennan's having he's having an affair, uh Richard is with Raquel Welsh.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

And she says at one point to him, at the after Lee, his wife dies, she says, How are you doing? And he says, Fine, are you free tonight? Like doesn't even like he barely even says, Are you fine? Are you free tonight? Because he wants to get some. And she, of course, then decides, well, you know that you're single, I'm no longer interested in in having an affair with you anymore. Uh again, these people do not have the strongest moral fiber you've ever seen. And actually, one thing about Raquel Wilch that I I I read this uh this interesting uh article about the about this. You know, she sued the director, Herbert Ross, claimed he assaulted her uh in an instant in the dressing room. Um now, I don't know if it's true or not. Yes. Uh and she apparently escaped to London to escape physical harm, she put it. Uh now Warner Brothers, who made the movie, they said they used a statement supporting Ross and criticizing her for her statements. And in fact, uh there's a quote from uh James Mason where he said that Welch was, quote, the most selfish, ill-mannered, inconsiderate actress that I've ever had the displeasure of working with. Imagine that in James Mason's like sick. Yeah, yeah. He was not a fan of Ruckel Welch. And she's pretty wooden in the movie. I I have to say, she's not great in the movie. Uh in contrast, we mentioned Diane Cannon. I think she's great. And there's a wonder really fantastic scene where uh James Mason actually tries to kill her. And by the way, I've realized this only uh only uh today that he tries to kill her, and this is revealed, and she finds this out about him, and yet again, seems unbothered that he tried to you know murder her. So he tries to kill her and she's rescued. It's a great shock because it's like she they someone turns she's in she's on this uh sort of inflatable air you know mattress on this on the water, and someone turns her propellers on, and she's almost sucked into the propellers, and she's rescued, and she gets off the boat, and she has this, I thought, really, really impressive scene where she's like sort of hysterically laughing but also having a meltdown at the same time, and she has a line about how can someone get her I don't know, something a bottle of wine and a couple of lesbians. It's a very strange line, but I guess as much as just that maybe she's the homosexual. Um but it's a wonderfully acted scene, and I think she's actually she's the best thing in this movie, I think. Uh her and Mason are the two best things in this movie.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah, I'm I'm more of a Mason man, although I I I I think her work in the movie is excellent. I think uh I think she's often a very uh productive presence in the movie. I will say, I I interpreted that Mason's motive slightly differently in that scene, although again, this is not a movie I've seen ten times, like I've seen most of the ones we discussed, in that I thought he was trying to kill James Cornwall. Yes, he was. He was killing his own.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

He wasn't, but he almost did kill her. He almost did kill her.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

But that would have been involuntary manslaughter or something. I guess it would have been an accident that he basically had her sucked into the pellers and turned her into the So she would have been responsible for her death, but it was not his intention to Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

And again, she doesn't seem very upset about that. Uh and um again, I it's it's one of these, it's it's a very cynical, I said very cynical movie. And uh, you know, it's interesting what you said about about Perkins. I mean, first of all, this is the only script that Perkins and Sonna ever worked on together. Uh this is um and it's an unusual pairing. It's not somebody you associate with, you know, great screenplay writing. And it yet has it is a as a whodunit, it's a wonderful film. And I was thinking about this, you know, this was sort of feels like you had a lot of kind of interesting Who Done It films like in the 1970s. Um, you know, movies that had these sort of big casts, you know, I'm thinking about Orient Express, which came out a year afterward, uh, or Death, another Agatha Christie Death on the Nile. Um, and uh movies like maybe The Death of the Great Chefs of Europe or or uh Death by Murder, right? Which is like a murder by death, which is like a satire.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Simon wrote that as a part of his divorce settlement, I believe. Is that right? Although I have a weakness, I have a weakness for that movie, which which is not a good movie, but which I which I really enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

I've been seeing it since I was a kid. It's a funny movie, but it's it's not uh like a great piece of cinema. But I think as far as like these kind of 70s Who Dunit movies I think a lot of those movies were based on previous works. You could imagine this movie as a play, but this was where it was an original. You think about something like a movie like um like Death Trap, for example, which is another great movie that came out with Christopher Reeve and Mike. Again, by the way, gay characters, I'll get to that in a second. Um, but that's also based on a play. This is again, this is a an and I think uh is an original screenplay. I think it's actually one of the better whodunit movies of that era. And I think the other one that that that relate to is this movie Sleuth, uh, which came out a year earlier with Michael Cain and Lawrence Olivier, a movie I love. But interestingly enough, you cannot stream that movie. It is not available on any streaming platform. I'm not quite sure why, but it's not. That's why we must all support physical media. I absolutely. But I and I would love it if they'd show it in a theater. As far as like who done it movies, is this this is this feels like uh one of the best ones that and not just the best ones, but also one of the more cynical ones. Because even like Orient Express, it has a sort of a very moralistic element to it.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Yes, Orient Express is a very moralistic tone.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

And I don't love that film, to be honest. But I I mean, my feeling, I mean, I again I don't want to raise this level of discussion to a place where it ought not be. It's it I I do recommend The Lats of Sheila as a as an evening's entertainment. And I do think that the cleverness lies in the writing, the puzzle that they constructed is really smart. There's one or two things I don't fully understand, but nevertheless, it's it's smart and I do like most of the performances. And so it's and there are some hilarious moments. There's a uh an attempted murder when somebody dons puppets for gloves, and they say they kind of apologize saying, I don't have gloves, and that's it's an extremely funny moment. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

It's such a but and it's played as a as like this as like this this like slasher movie moment. I don't have gloves. And you're like, you're holding puppets. And by the way, why those puppets that was Ian Michane's character has the puppets? And you it's never clear to me why I think they were just lying around there. And so he's No, no, there's a scene where he's talking with the he's on there on it, he's listening to music on headphones, and he has the puppets on his hands. He's talking to his wife, Raquel Welch, and you're like, why the hell are are you are you holding puppets? Maybe it's the 70s day. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Yeah. But but I do, I mean, with my film Snap hat on, I do I must confess that I found it indifferently directed. Uh I thought there were maybe two or three good shots maximum, and the rest of it was very workman-like, which a lot of directors uh believe in. Get out of the way of the performers. But you know, they were not these these performances, however entertaining they are, are not reciting Shakespeare here or delving into the depths of their complex characters. So this isn't this may not be a movie you know, a few more thoughtful compositions and shots, I think I would have appreciated more. And Ross is in you know, he directed a lot of films, but a Law, you know, I I'm I'm reluctant to just uh cr criticize artists because I assume that they're, you know, don't shoot the pianist, he's doing the best he can. Right. But but he he does strike me as something of a journeyman director. Um he did direct, you know, Woody Allen's uh play it against Sam, uh which is uh I th I found to be a very, very enjoyable film. But but would I think of him as a an important kind of 70s director, I'm I'm gonna have to say no.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. And I agree. I it's funny, I was thinking about that too. Are there any really interesting choices he makes as a director? And I don't yeah. There's a couple of nice shots of the of the southern France.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

There's a couple of well-constructed shots, but they're noticeable they were noticeable to me because of their a that they were atypical, right? It was like, oh wow, max construction, why aren't you doing why aren't you doing it? Why are you doing that for the rest of this movie?

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Yeah, exactly. Um but again, I think you're right. You don't want to get in the way of of what is a uh a a mystery box, a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

It's a rider-driven movie, you know, just a writer- Yes, sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

So one thing I the only thing I'll talk about, that thing I think that's interesting, is there's a lot of gay representation in this movie. Yeah. First of all, you have this mention earlier, Diane Cannon talks about some get or two lesbians. Richard Benjamin outs himself as a homosexual, says he had an affair with Clinton, which may or I assume is true, but is I guess Clinton would know since he made the card, because he I guess he would know if they had a lot of it. And that card he did make. That card he did make. You know, it's not it's not it's obviously considered a sin in uh among the other sins. I'm not using sin in the in the in the biblical sense. I mean among the other things that the secrets they want to keep hidden. Um and then there's a shot at a in in when they're going they're in they're on shore, the first game that they're playing, Diane Cannon ends up finding herself inside of a um uh lesbian bar. Yes. I don't know if you had a lot of gay characters in 1974 movies, or even discussion of homosexuality in 1974 movies.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

No, it was still an exceptional thing. But I also I I haven't quite maybe I'm a little slow, but exactly why was Clinton dressed in drag in the confession box? Was there a part of the case?

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Oh no, no, because he was uh he was supposed to be Alice Raquel Welsh.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Ah, okay, yes, that does make sense. Well, and and he did look a little bit like her, actually, now that I was one of the little pieces of business in the movie I didn't follow. But yes, I mean uh hom homosexuality in the movies at that time, it either would have been the theme of the movie, say Friedkin's Boys in the Band, uh, which is kind of overtly about the homosexual community, or it would have still been characters that were coded in a way to often lazily kind of use as a vehicle uh to say something untoward about the character.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Yeah, and it I don't I don't know that's that's what's happening in this movie. Uh it doesn't feel as much. So I don't know, that just sort of was one thing that stood out to me. But you're right, in general, this is not like great cinema, this is just really entertaining and enjoyable cinema. I I mean this is a movie I come back to every couple of years and watch again, and I do enjoy it, and it's sort of an interesting and I like a good who'd done it, even if you know how this thing ends, right? Sort of watching how the pieces are put together is really kind of enjoyable, actually. And I think this is a movie, I think a lot of who'd done it's are better the second time you watch them because you can you can sort of understand, oh, this is how this was this is how this was done.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

If if it holds up, because some some of them, some of them don't. Uh and you know, they cheat. True. Uh you need to this is also in in Murder by Death, it's a it's a you know, which we agree is not a great movie, but there are a bunch of mystery writers, and they Truman Capote's character confronts them all, saying, you know, you withheld vital clues that without which was impossible to solve the mystery. And again, in this this particular movie, The Last of Sheila, you have all the information you need right there in front of you. And I think that is to the movie's credit.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

It's I almost in the opening scene of the movie, it's like you uh the opening scene at the boat, they take a picture of each of them under the letters Sheila and and literally write that in there. You could you could theoretically solve the mystery of this. And so, you know, it's it's sort of I think that's kind of what makes it kind of a fun movie. I think when I it's funny, when you mentioned this, I was like sort of, oh, this is a great movie for us to watch. And and I and again, not because it's a it's a it's a a fantastic film, but it's because it's incredibly enjoyable to watch. And I think if you've ever seen it, you're gonna get a kick out of it. You know, I think it's just a fun movie to see. And I don't know that, you know, people you still I I like I said, I love who done it, and I don't know that I see as many Hoodunits now that are as compelling as this one. This one is I have a thing off top of my head, like we mentioned Orient Express, a movie that I frankly don't really like all that much. I think it's overrated. I think I think actually Albert Fenias Parot doesn't work. And a lot of the Agatha Christie movies, I don't know if you saw the most recent um Kenneth Brannick version of Death Maniel. I did not. Just dreadful. I mean, it is a bad movie. And I don't know that they and I they always have these these these Agatha Christie movies with like lots of these stock full of Hollywood stars, right? I mean if I remember Ingmar Bergman is in Bernard Express. Isn't Betty Davis in? No, Ingrid. Ingrid not Ingrid. Ingrid Bergman, not Ingmar. Ingrid Bergman, yeah, and then some very famous older actress I can't remember, but like it's John Gielgood's in it, John Gilgood's in it, and Anthony Perkins is in it.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Anthony Perkins is in it. Apparently in all mystery movies. Apparently he's all my movie. Are you a fan of that movie? I I haven't seen it recently, but I would assume that I do like it, but I assume that I thought it moved a little slowly. Um but there are lots and lots of pieces of business that I could certainly enjoy in that movie, which is not kind of fresh in my mind. I liked Finney's characterization, or at least the the ways in which he confronted the characters. So what I remember most vividly about Orient Express, which I haven't seen in quite some time, is as Finney is moving toward the solution, he kind of serially confronts each of the participants with the ludicracy of the testimony that they provided to him. And I remember uh being quite uh uh enamored of the way in which he kind of took each of them to task one by one. And it is, as you said, uh quite an impressive gallery of Hollywood performers. Even the murder victim uh is Richard Woodmark, you know, who's uh very famous action presents. And then you know, Lauren Bacall shows up, so you've got it.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Lauren Bacall, she's in the two. That's right. That's right. No, it's funny about the two. That to me always felt like my kids were very into Agatha Christie movies. And we watched um And Then There Were None, the original version of it. I don't know if you've ever seen that movie. No, I haven't. But it is it is a ludicrous movie because if you know And Then There Were None, the the the movie is basically about 10 people who go to this island and they all get killed off one by one. And it's not a movie with a happy ending. I'll just leave it at that. But the version that was made in the 50s is a hundred percent a happy ending. It's it's the craziest, it's completely rewrites the ending of the movie. And it's this the the two people like they run off as as lovers together because they're they're in love and they're they didn't get killed. And it's just like the most insane kind of ending for a movie. And I feel like maybe this is like maybe the way they did who denets of like the 50s or 60s, it's just they didn't have like you know the good, the good, the good, no there wasn't like a uh a terrible ending for all the characters like there was in in this movie or you know, what you said, Orient Express.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Yes. I mean, this movie, our movie, The Last of Sheila, would not have been permissible in the 50s or even into the mid-60s. And this is you know, one of the things they were talking about with the 70s films is that the kind of production code authority imposed a rather strict moral structure on filmmaking. If there was a crime, it had to be punished. If somebody did something wrong, they had to be taken to task for it. And there had to, each movie had to end, even if it was kind of downbeat, let's say, like the end of the Maltese Falcon is a very downbeat ending, but there is clear moral closure. That's interesting. All of the guilty are brought to justice. So Bogey feels bad about turning over Mary Astor, but Mary Aster did it and and and she's brought to justice. And so, in the with the shuttering of the production code administration, that's one of the things that made the new Hollywood possible, and that's why they were so into movies that did not end so well, or a movie like this one where bad people get away with big crimes, uh, because they they were pushing back so hard against the strictures of the production code that had dominated the industry since essentially 1934.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

That's interesting because I, you know, it's funny. If you think about this movie, the ending, right? No one is uh punished, no one is turned into the police. Richard Benjamin, who who commits the murders, he is punished because he killed his wife to basically inherit her fortune, and now he has to use that fortune to pay for the movie that's gonna be made about the death of Sheila, right? This is basically. But he's gonna get to serve as a strip consultant, so you know he'll get a little something out of it. That's right. And his whole thing is like the the movie sort of the sort of subplot movie is that he keeps being asked to do rewrites for film, doesn't get to write his own movies. Yeah. And even on this month, the he orchestrated, he gets to write the rewrites. And the final shot is of him sort of sitting with these puppets on his hands and looking uh far off into the distance, realizing that he just got he did all this work for nothing. There is this, and then he what's the movie that the song that plays is Bet Midler singing, You gotta you gotta have friends, uh, which is an ironic, a very deeply cynical way to look at this movie. So yeah, it's it's I just think I think that's sort of striking about this is that it is a it is not a happy ending. It's the characters are sort of morally depraved. They're all morally depraved. None of them seem to care that two people have been killed. Uh they're happy to work with people who have molested children and who have murdered people uh and have done bad things because that's the way things go in Hollywood.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Yes. And I do think, again, without a shred of evidence that this would have been consistent with Anthony Perkins' own feelings about his experiences in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Yeah, I think that's an interesting uh part of it I hadn't considered. But yeah, like you said, he was not a he did not have a happy experience in in in Hollywood. As I said, I mean I think you you can see that that cynicism in this, and then you can see, you know, there the love apparently that he and Sonnheim had for playing games and and for you know and for these kinds of elaborate charades that they would do with their friends. So I think that's I I'm not sure else to say about this movie, except you should go see it. It's a lot of fun. It's really fun, it's really great, it's entertaining, and I think you get a kick out of it. And in fact, if you can't clever movie. It's a clever movie. Uh it's a clever, fun movie. And you know what? Clever, fun movies, they deserve a place in our hearts alongside the serious and profound movies as well. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Especially if they have Mr. James Mason in them.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Well, I and I would also say if they have Raquel Welsh, because I mean she's not much of an actress, but she is, we can say this, she's rather easy on the eyes. As is Diane Cannon, by the way. Uh they're both very attractive and it's it's fun. And by the way, one last thing.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

If I if I know to such things, which I surely don't, I would say that actually Diane Cannon uh uh has a few head-turning moments in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

She does. And I read something that she actually gained 17 pounds for this role. I'm not quite sure why. Uh and apparently it was to look more like Sue Menger's, who the character was based on, but she looks great in the movie. And by the way, one last point, I'm like Ian McShane, who uh is played he was in a sort of a forgettable role uh as Raquel Welsh's sort of manager or husband or boyfriend. He is still working today. Uh he was he was wonderful in the Deadwood uh show, and he's like a he's a great actor, and I think you know, I I think of all of them, I think he's the one who's still acting today. The rest, I think most of them, John Hackett, who plays uh Lee, she passed away in the 80s. I think Brick Benjamin is still still alive, Dave Mason's no longer no longer with us, but Nishane is is still alive and he's still working, so good for him.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Yeah.

unknown 34:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

All right. Well, I think that's all we can say about this movie. It's a lot of fun. Go see it, and uh, we'll be with you next week for something new and different, probably a bit more deeper and deeper and more profound than The Last of Sheila, but still a fun movie. Jonathan, thanks for being here. Great to see you again. All right, we'll do it again soon. Later.