That 70s Movie Podcast
A look back at the films that defined cinema's greatest era - the 1970s!
That 70s Movie Podcast
Love and Death & The "Early Funny Ones"
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This week on "That 70s Movie Podcast," Jonathan and Michael hit the frontlines for Woody Allen's 1975 comedy classic "Love and Death" and also his four other "early funny ones" - "Take the Money and Run," "Bananas", "Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Sex (*But Were Afraid to Ask)," and "Sleeper."
It's not often we talk about five different films in one sitting, but tackling Allen's early comedy movies gave us a chance to chart his evolution as a filmmaker, chronicle the early part of his career, and examine what has changed and what has stayed consistent in his filmmaking.
We also talked about the brilliance of Diane Keaton as his comedic co-star, Allen's embrace of the New Hollywood ethos throughout his career, and above all, our favorite jokes from these hilarious early movies.
So grab your gub and your catcher mitt, watch out for snakebites, don't slip on the banana peels, and join us for this week's episode of "That 70s Movie Podcast."
Also, check out our guest appearance on The Thinking Mind Podcast, as we discussed the 1988 Woody Allen drama "Another Woman."
Please also take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and buy us a cup of coffee!
With parole as inducement, Virgil submits to the vaccine test. It is a success, except for one temporary side effect. For several hours he is turned into a rabbi.
SPEAKER_03And so the reason we celebrate the Passover holidays by eating matzo is to commemorate the time that Moses led the children of Israel from Egypt.
SPEAKER_00Hear me. From this day on, the official language of San Marcos will be Swedish. In addition to that, all citizens were required to change their underwear. Every half hour. Underwear will be worn on the outside. So we can check. Furthermore, all children under sixteen years old. Sixteen years old.
SPEAKER_08Wait two years, wait for you.
SPEAKER_02I'm a graduate of New York University. Do you want to perform sex with me?
SPEAKER_04Perform sex? Uh uh I don't think I'm up to a performance, but I'll rehearse with you if you like.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I just touched my why don't they have a machine here?
SPEAKER_04Machine? I'm not getting into that thing. I'm I'm strictly a hand operator. You know, I I I don't like anything with moving parts that are not my own.
SPEAKER_02It's hard to believe that you haven't had sex for 200 years.
SPEAKER_08204 if you can't my marriage. The Emperor out of the way, all that remains is to kill Don Francisco. That will destroy his highness stupid dreams of a treaty with Spain. Then I'll sail to Austria to form an alliance with the crown. Not the king, just the crown. They call me mad, but one day when the history of France is written, they will mark my name well. Sidney Applebaum.
SPEAKER_05Welcome everybody to the latest episode of That 70s Moody Podcast. I'm your host, Michael A. Cohen, joined by my co-host, Jonathan Kirshner. Jonathan, how are you doing today?
SPEAKER_06Well, I'm gonna go with the Tom Waits song, Down There by the Train. And if you know the song, then that's a good reference. And if you don't, that's probably a good thing too, because we'd like to keep things upbeat here. And you know, I do find our podcasting uh something of a respite from the madness. And so so I am feeling very good right now.
SPEAKER_05Well, if I were to pick a Tom Waits songs crack member mood, it probably would be down in the hole. But that's a whole other conversation. And as you said, we're not gonna get into that stuff. We're just gonna focus on positive things and funny things. And today we have a lot of humor to talk about. We're talking about Woody Allen, Love and Death, and his quote-unquote early funny ones. But before we get into that, Jonathan, have you seen anything good recently?
SPEAKER_06I've actually seen a gaggle of movies. Some of them are good, some of them less good, but I'm just gonna give a attention to two of them. But last night, uh I saw Two Prosecutors, which is a highly praised movie. It takes place in 1937 in Solence, Russia. And uh I thought it was a little straightforward. I expected more from it, but that may be one of those situations where you hear great things about it, and then you tune in, and you say, well, you know, this is just all fine, but I'm not sure it lived up to all of the hype of the very positive reviews. But more excitingly, I did catch up with Arnaud Despochen's two pianos, uh, which features Charlotte Rampling, one of my favorite actors, as you know. You love Charlotte Rampling. And I love uh Arnaud Despochen. We I talked about my love uh Olivia Esseas last week. Uh this week we get to give uh Despochen a shout out. It's his most recent film. I would not put it up there with his Holy Trinity, uh, A Christmas Tale, Kings and Queens, and Ismail's Ghosts. But uh it was a very pleasant experience. I'm very happy we saw it. And after I see it three or four more times, I'll probably come to understand it properly.
SPEAKER_05Well, good luck with that. Uh, I actually have seen a couple of good things recently, I wanted to mention. So uh my daughter is obsessed with the uh 2017 movie Call Me by Your Name by Luca Guadagnino. I think I'm pronouncing the name properly, starting Timothy Chamvalet and Army Hammer. It was playing in uh Manhattan yesterday, so we went to see it. You can feel free to judge me, listeners, for taking my daughters, because there is a little bit of sexual content in that movie, but you know, it is what it is. You started seeing it. And uh I have to say I really enjoyed it. I thought it was an excellent movie. And it's a very unusual movie in the sense that I was sort of not sure what to think of it. And then there was a final monologue delivered by Michael Stolborg, uh, who is a wonderful actor, who that just kind of sells the film and kind of coheres the entire film together. And I have to say, I kind of I kind of walked down thinking, boy, that was a one hell of a movie. So I highly recommend it. I think it's a good film. Have you seen that movie, actually?
SPEAKER_06No, although you were not the first person to recommend it to me, and somehow I have just not done it. Uh I'll have to re-put it on the list of to watch.
SPEAKER_05It's an interesting movie. It's it's sort of a coming-of-age movie, uh, I mean, with a with a lot of significant LGBT uh themes, but this is about two young men who were together, but it's there's a little bit, it's sort of a little more universal, I'd say, of a coming of age story. Um I I I had to think more about it, but I I came out of it being very impressed by it's a beautiful film. Um the screenplay is actually by uh James Ivory of the Ivory and Merchant uh uh writing team. And actually, this is kind of crazy. He wrote this film at the age of 89 and won an Oscar for the oldest man to win an Oscar. Yeah, pretty impressive. Uh I've also been doing I've been doing some rewatching recently. Uh the my girlfriend and I we are we are now re-watching The Sopranos because she's never seen it. Um it's amazing we survived two years together and she never hadn't seen it. Uh boy, that show is so good. And I, you know, just watching the first season, you just reminded of how great it is and how wonderful of an actor uh James Gandalfney is. So that's kind of a fun thing, and I I may mention that more as we go along further into the um into the show. And I've also been watching a bunch of Woody Allen movies. Uh the three that, besides the ones we we talked about today, I re-watched uh Crimes and Misdemeanors. I saw his most recent one, Coup de Chance, and Blue Jasmine. But I didn't like Blue Jasmine when I first saw it. Uh I liked it more this time, a lot more this time. I think Kate Planchet, that might be the best acting performance in a Woody Allen film.
SPEAKER_06She is one of our great living actors.
SPEAKER_05She really is. And she's great in the movie. I don't know that I love the movie. I had some issues with it. There's an element, I don't know, it's a character study, but it does feel almost a little cruel because the main character seems to be kind of mentally ill. Um I actually liked Kudishance a lot. I'm very surprised. So it didn't get amazing reviews, but I thought it was I thought it was kind of a return to form. And Crab's misdemeanors. I'm saying it to you now, Jonathan. We are going to discuss that movie at some point on this podcast. Because that, outside of the the holy, not Trinity, what is it, the holy uh duopoly uh of Andy Hall and Manhattan, that might be his best movie. I know that's a controversial statement, but that might be his best movie.
SPEAKER_06It certainly is a movie that soars and is worth close discussion.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's worth close discussion. Also, Martin Landau, best male performance in a Woody Allen film, I think, maybe ever. Uh speaking of Woody Allen, we mentioned this last week, we appeared on the Thinking Mind Podcast, and we went on to talk about the Woody Allen movie Another Woman. This was a great conversation uh with our host, Alex Kermy. Uh, it's available online. We will be putting out this underneath the 70s podcast at some point, maybe next week, maybe this week, I'm not sure. Um, great episode. I guess, Jonathan, one of the best we've done. Love the conversation. Alex was great and a great movie.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I had a terrific time. I I urge our listeners to check it out.
SPEAKER_05You should check it out. Uh, a couple other uh housekeeping notes I wanted to mention. Um I went back and listened to a few old episodes. I sometimes I do this just to sort of see how we're doing, how we were doing in the past, how we're doing now, and I realized the audio on some of them wasn't so great. So I've been actually working to improve the audio a number of the early episodes. You may notice that if you go back and listen, the audio should be a little bit better. So I hope that you appreciate that. Also, we have set up subscriptions on Spotify, and some of the early episodes are now behind the paywall. So if you want to listen to them, you have to subscribe. I think we had a couple people who did subscribe. Now you know, so you can subscribe on Spotify. You can also buy a cup of coffee, and I want to give a shout-out to two people who did. Uh, one of these is more recent, one of them is a little while ago, and I forgot to mention it. Uh, Angel Sanchez, who is a frequent commenter, he said, I'm enjoying your podcast, so have a very eventy on me. Uh, thank you for your insights and movies. Scenes, some were a bit hard to sit through, though.
unknownWell, you know what?
SPEAKER_05That's fair. That's fair, Angel. And then Dean Brandon said, one of the best podcasts I've listened to as a former academic who became jaded with film. Your intelligent, entertaining, and thorough entries have really been kindled my love for cinema. Thank you. Enjoy a flat white or two on me. Dean, cannot thank you enough for that lovely comment. And uh, lovely thing to say. Yeah, then thank you for buying us a cup of coffee. We really appreciate it. And just so you know, the the coffee and the subscription, it really just is meant to defray the cost of putting this show on the air, which is just the hosting and you know that the subscriptions we have to sort of go to for all of that. So we're not making any money off this, but we do appreciate your contributions. Anything you can do will help and will help us actually grow the podcast and hopefully get uh more listeners out there. Um and lastly, I want to just mention two comments. We got um Spencer Steele, who has been a big fan of the show. So I'd love if you guys reviewed The Last Tycoon. It's a huge miss, but it was ambitious, star shot at NFT 70s. New York, New York would be a cool two. It'd be interesting to see, to hear your thoughts on some whiffs. And we also heard uh from another listener who said, How about a, I think this was Curly Pubes, actually, our favorite, our friend Curly Pubes, how about a double feature in comparing two 70s films that deal with work and race, blue collar and car wash. I think on The Last Tycoon, I think your take is that this was a substantial whiff, correct?
SPEAKER_06Yes, but there could be this sub-genre of of missus, and so it would definitely fall into that category. I was really surprised with Last Tycoon that so much talent could be attached to such a bad movie.
SPEAKER_05Uh Jonathan, you got a comment uh offline from a a friend who said they listened to the Tower of Inferno episode and kind of dinged us for not liking that film more. For he he this person said that's a really good film and you should we should like it more than it than you did. Well, you know, we don't judge here. We don't judge here. That's exactly right. As for blue collar and car wash, I think lots are interesting. I I could see maybe possibly doing that. Car wash, maybe we'll we'll take this under advising. We do appreciate all of these suggestions. We have a whole list of suggestions we've received over the past couple of weeks and months that we need to go through. Um but for today, we are going to be focused on the films of Woody Allen. And we had a hard time deciding how to do this because there's a number of these early funny ones. And the early funny ones, of course, is a joke from one of the Stardust Memories. Stardust Memories, which is a another movie I saw, by the way, recently again for the first time like 30 years, and and uh enjoyed it, didn't love it, but enjoyed it. But he it's it's talking about his fame and how his fans expect him to go back and recreate his early funny movies. And for the buttons.
SPEAKER_06The joke is even better than that. He has a vision where he's greeted by space aliens and he asks the meaning of life, and and the aliens explain to him that he should just go back to making movies that people like, and that the aliens really enjoyed the early funny ones. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_05They enjoyed the early funny ones also. Yeah. So we want to just be clear. There are a number of early funny ones. We have focused on five for today. We are not talking about what's new, Pussycat, what's up Tiger Lily, and Casino Royale. Those are three early ones he did. Only one of those he directed What's Up Tiger Lily, but I don't I've seen, haven't seen those movies in years. I do not remember thinking that highly of them. I don't think we need to spend a lot of time on them.
SPEAKER_06Aaron Ross Powell Right. And it also makes sense to pick it up but take the money and run, as you're about to say, because that's you know his first real triple thread picture.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely, where he's writing, directing, and starring. So we also did not do Don't Drink the Water, which he is in but is not is not uh did not direct uh or write. And to play it again, Sam. We I think you're gonna briefly mention that, but we did not do that one either because although he's in it, he did not direct it.
SPEAKER_06Aaron Powell Right, but I'm gonna have a couple of things to say anyway.
SPEAKER_05Fair enough. So we are focusing today on take the money and run, bananas, everything you always wanted to know about sex, but were afraid to ask, sleeper, and love and death. And we'll focus mostly on love and death. I think we agree it is the best of the early funny ones. And it is also the transition between the early funny ones and the next film he made, which is Andy Hall, which is, I would argue, his best film. So before I get into this, um, I've been listening to a lot of Woody Allen podcasts, and at all of these episodes and podcasts, people touch on his private life. And I'm just gonna say this up front, we're not going to do that. Okay. We uh have a credo here at That Sunny's Movie Podcast. You separate the art from the artist. Whatever you think of Woody Allen, whether you believe the allegations against him, that's your business. That's fine. We're not getting into it. We're not gonna talk about it. We're gonna focus on the art. And if there's some overlap that's relevant, then we can maybe bring it up. But otherwise, we're not gonna get into it.
SPEAKER_06You know, keep it keep in mind that we did a podcast about Chinatown.
SPEAKER_05We did Roman Polanski on Chinatown, exactly. And we we referenced it, but then we we moved on. And just for the record, you know, let's be clear, Roman Polanski, much worse. Right. That's my point. Yes, we need to. He actually pled guilty to uh to Hipprian.
SPEAKER_06Yes, there's there's no contestation about what Roman Polanski did.
SPEAKER_05None. No contestation. There is with Woody Allen, which is one of the reasons we don't want to get into it, and we don't want to, you know, it's just not necessary. So uh we have five films today, Jonathan. So this is gonna make this a tough one to ask. But let's start with Yeah, let's just do each of them. Let's just do each of them right off the bat. Okay, first one. Take the money and run. Is this a good movie? Is this a bad movie, or is this a great movie? I'm gonna buzz in with good, Phil. I I would go between good and great. I think that's very good. Uh, but okay. Bananas. Jonathan, is that a good film? Is it a bad film, or is it a great film?
SPEAKER_06It's a very good movie that I have a particular affinity for. I like it more than its goodness, but I still think it's a very good movie.
SPEAKER_05Fair enough. Fair enough. Uh, I think that I would agree with that that uh that take. Everything you always wanted to know about sex, but were afraid to ask. Good movie, bad movie, or is it a great movie, Jonathan?
SPEAKER_06It's a watchable but extraordinarily uneven movie with one strikingly brilliant sequence that stands as a great short film. I agree. That's exactly how I would go as well.
SPEAKER_05Uh, next, Sleeper. Now, is this a good movie? Is this a bad movie, or is this a great movie, Jonathan?
SPEAKER_06Again, I'm buzzing in with very good.
SPEAKER_05Very good. So we're basically like in a B plus territory on most of these early funny ones. Now we've come to the film that really is what we're talking about most today: 1975's Love and Death. Jonathan, good movie, bad movie, or great movie.
SPEAKER_06So I still, I mean, I think it's the best of the bunch, but I still can't go above the very good. And I think the problem is, I just re-watched it again because I'm going to be talking about it, that I'm so familiar with it and all of its jokes that when I kind of re-watched it, it was almost routine for me. I couldn't recapture the experience of seeing it for the first time because I'm sure the first few times I saw it, I, you know, my was more gut-busting laughter going on. Whereas this time I knew the jokes that were going to be told before they were told. And so it might have kind of dampened some of my enthusiasm for it. And also, I still think, you know, as we've talked about already, that this is a transitional film between Woody Allen as a more serious filmmaker and Woody Allen as a comedian who made movies. And as as I will repeat in this uh broadcast here, the camera is still chasing the jokes, I think, in love and death. And so that that limits its, you know, I I can't I can't slap the great label uh on that that style of film.
SPEAKER_05I I look, I it's a fair point. I kind of go with great because I just love that movie. And it's I think it might be uh joke for joke, his funniest film. Uh and my kids also love that film, so I have I have sort of that connection to it as well. Um but I I hear what you're saying. And I and let's actually before we get into love and death, let's talk about the the the four early ones. Uh so again, take the money and run, bananas, everyone knows sex are afraid to ask, and sleeper. Of those four, which one is your favorite? Oh. Well, you keep throwing these hardballs at me. I know. I'm not messing around today, Jonathan. I am going I'm going for broke here today.
SPEAKER_06I have a lot of things to say about each of them, but really, if I could kind of hang on to one forever, I think it would probably have to be bananas, just because, as I said, I have I have a personal, a close personal relationship with that movie that that I think transcends its pound-for-pound movie quality. Aaron Powell Why is what what is that personal connection to that film? Aaron Powell I don't know. There are aspects of it that I just so appreciated. I think so. When you think of it holding together as a movie, uh maybe it doesn't even. But it's if you think to think about some of the things that are strung together in the film. I mean, if we're gonna talk about them one by one, but just the the co-cell framing uh for me is just glorious. And so there are so many moments like that in the movie that that that are very special that I see lots to appreciate in all of these other movies, but none of them have as many kind of hits for me as as bananas does.
SPEAKER_05So it's interesting. I I kind of feel the same way. I go back and forth with bananas and take the money and run. I think I said to you earlier that I take the money and run a little bit higher, uh, just because I there are some jokes in there that are just some of my favorite jokes, but the bananas is a just a it's a very funny movie. But let's be clear, these movies are are they're kind of collections of skits. I mean, there's a story here. There's a story in Sleeper. There's very clear stories, although it's it's a confusing story. Uh and Take the Money and Run, by the way, is I think kind of groundbreaking in that it's I think it's the first mockumentary uh that's ever been done. This is '69. It tells a story of this made-up uh uh bank robber or or uh criminal named Virgil Starkwell, played by played by Woody Allen, and sort of covers his exploits as, you know, maybe the worst criminal to ever walk the earth, or the most incompetent criminal to ever walk the earth. I mean, bananas is a story about him falling in love with his, I think at the time it was his wife, Louise Lasser. Yes. Uh, and she is uh organizing on behalf of this uh small country in Latin America called St. Marcos. He goes down there, he becomes joins the revolution, he becomes president briefly. There is a story there again. Um Sleeper is a story about uh he plays a character named what is his name again? Oh, um uh Milo Milo Monroe or something like that. I don't remember. Something like that. And he basically is he goes to the hospital and he uh gets into a coma. He wakes up 200 years later in the future, uh, in this very advanced sort of world. But this is also, by the way, the first film he does with Diane Keaton, and she is wonderful in this movie. And everything on Sex is afraid to ask is basically his collection of seven skits. It's not really a movie. There's not there's not really a cohesive theme to it. Love and Death is more of a cohesive movie, I would say, but the other ones are sort of collections of jokes. Um and I kind of it's funny. I of all of them, I gotta say this though, this is probably a controversial statement. Watching them again this week, the one that just didn't land with me was Sleeper. I think I have I have a feeling why that is. It's because I that movie has a lot of physical comedy in it, a lot of slapstick humor. Now, having said that, the scene where he finds these giant um vegetables and he gets uh there's a giant banana, and he he and the guy chasing him slip on the banana peel. I I watching it again, I was crying laughing. It's such a such a great concept for a joke. But I don't think it's as many good one liners as these other movies do. And so for that reason, it just didn't quite um land the same way for me. Um I don't know. You I think you you have a better higher opinion of Sleeper, don't you?
SPEAKER_06Yes, but I wasn't, you know, uh game. I think that I just thought it was a a step forward. I think it's really crucial when you think about Sleeper, Love and Death, Andy Hall. I think it's really the triptych there of the kind of Woody Allen, Diane Keaton films in the early going, and each of them one kind of reaches for the next one in ways that we'll we'll talk about a little bit. I think it reflects a lot of his influences, and I think it has some interesting things to say. Do the jokes land as ha ha funny for me as they do in bananas? No. But but as a film, I think it's a a more mature effort than than bananas is.
SPEAKER_05I mean, it's funny that I'm I'm kind of j judging these on which ones made me laugh the hardest.
SPEAKER_06And um, well, they are the early funny ones. They are the early funny ones.
SPEAKER_05So I feel like I'm I'm I'm not so off base in having that view of them. Um like for Take the Money and Run, for example, is a really like just it's almost like a scatter shot kind of movie. There is a theme, there is a story here, and not all the jokes land necessarily, but I'll just say we we we had this moment, we we went back and forth talking about our favorite bits from each movie. And I just mentioned Take the Money and Run. There is a scene there where he goes to prison and he is offered the opportunity to take this new drug, but they don't know the side effects of it. And he takes it, and the side effect is he turns into a rabbi. And there's a scene where he's sitting in the prison thing, the prison uh cell, and he's got the payas on the beard, and he says, The reason we eat the matzah on Passover, and I mean, whenever I have a Passover Seder and I write a head of Seder, I use that joke. It is such a great joke. And there's two great Jewish jokes in that movie. There's that, and then when he goes into the church, he he he kneels down on the pew and begins doving. Uh so for those two scenes alone, that move that kind of makes puts that movie at a whole other level for me. So I think what we're gonna do here is since I since I mentioned my favorite joke is Take the Money and Run, we're just gonna do each each movie bit piece by piece. So Take the Money and Run again, 1969 stars Woody Allen, Janet Margolin uh plays his wife in the movie. I don't know that anybody else really uh much recognition was in this film. It was a pretty small production. My understanding is this movie was filmed in San Francisco, and he used a lot of kind of just local character actors who lived out there. Um but it's not a movie that really is, you know. Later on, we of course associate um Woody Allen movies with all these guest stars, these amazing actors he has in them. This these movies do not have that. Um let's go about Take Money and Run. So let's just talk a little about that movie. So some of your favorite elements of that movie.
SPEAKER_06Well, my favorite joke is definitely when he's trying to rob a bank and the he gets into an argument with the tellers over what the note says. And you know, it says, I have a gun, this is a robbery, and and they say, Gub, this says gub, and they have this big argument over the note. That is easily my favorite uh joke in this movie. And I could I could watch that over and over again. And again, it has that certain type of frustrated humor that one can have when they're dealing with people in society who can be a little literal.
SPEAKER_05Right, right. And actually, you know what I love about that joke is that later on in the movie, he he makes a reference to a gun and he says gub, and then Janet Margolan corrects him and says, No, you mean gun. He's like, Oh yeah, gun, gun. Uh, that is probably the the best comedy bit in that, in that movie. Um but I also uh there was another there's another part too where he says, Well, oh yeah, when he he's a thief and he sees Janet Margolan in the park and he walks up trying to steal her purse and she sees him and they begin talking and he gets to fall in love with her. And he says, you know, after half an hour, I completely gave up the idea of trying to steal her purse. I I love that joke. That's another great one, actually, as well. There's a lot of just really good comedy bits in there. I mean, the stuff when he's in jail, when he's being frisked and he starts giggling out loud. Like you really get a sense of Woody Allen's sense of humor. Um, which is, I mean, how would I I watching these movies and and now I'm going a little bit broader here, but I just feel like he is just an incredibly funny person, just great comedic impulses and just a brilliant ability to write one-liners. I think it's worth remembering that up until the point he made this movie, I mean, he was a stand-up comedian, but he also wrote tons and tons of one-liners for other comedians. I mean, he was in writers' rooms where this is what he was doing, and he's just so good at it.
SPEAKER_06Yes, especially in the 50s. He was doing a lot of, you know, TV writing for what was back then Prestige TV, the Sid Caesar show, things like that. And he he was, you know, lauded for that, and then he left all that behind and started a stand-up career that went extremely poorly initially, uh, but stuck with it and became one of those major early, mid-60s recognizable comedians, regular presence on the Tonight Show, often guest hosting the Tonight Show. You know, you think of older, more mature Woody Allen as as a kind of TV averse. But back then, you know, he sat in Johnny's chair. Uh, and and so he was much more a very, very visible comedian. And so when you get into the movie making, you have two things going on. One is, like many writers, he started to direct movies initially to protect his his own writing. But the other is that he was really in all of these movies, except maybe Love and Death, a comedian who made movies. He wasn't really a filmmaker who made funny films. And so that really is what's going on. And it it gives a certain raggedness to all of them, a certain joke chasing, uh, you know, that you're desperately saying, you know, where how can I work in the next joke when, you know, and usually it's as quickly as possible. But for me, take the money and run, which I find more uneven than you do, is so important because of the things that it did kind of behind the curtain. There was a rough cut of Take the Money and Run that was disastrous. It had a lot of more serious overtones. It had like a ended initially with a kind of Bonnie and Clyde massacre. Yeah, with a shootout. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so it is the most untrue cliche in film history that a movie was saved in the editing room. But actually, Take the Money and Run was saved in the editing room. They brought in uh the editor Ralph Rosenblum, and he worked with it and crafted it and created the movie that we see from something that was very different uh than Woody Allen originally made, you know, in his own rough cut. And uh that was so important for several reasons. One is that it started his relationship with Ralph Rosenblum as his editor, and he learned Woody Allen, his filmmaking craft, I think largely from Rosenblum as the editor, and then starting with Andy Hall, our friend Mr. Gordon Willis, as cinematographer. And in each instance, he kind of absorbed so much from them that by the early 80s he stopped working with them basically because he had taken from them, I think, everything that he needed, and they realized that they were no longer tutoring him, but they were closer to being hired hands. And so I think take the money and run and the editing and the Rosenblum is important that also set a precedent for Woody in being willing to radically alter his films in post-production, which he did a lot and which is a tricky business, but something that has worked extremely well for him. And perhaps thanks to Ralph Rosenblum and Vincent Camby's rave review in the New York Times, it's also influential in getting him his three-picture deal with United Artists, which had that precedent-setting clause, which is low budgets in exchange for no studio interference. Right. And that's that's the holy grail of all of our 70s filmmakers, right? That we modest budgets and no interference. And so this is set that pattern.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, this is an important point about this film. This film was relatively successful. It did pretty well at the box office, but what that did is it allowed when Woody Allen negotiated uh his next contract to ask for creative control over his movies, something that he has maintained throughout his career. One of the the the elements of Woody Allen's filmmaking is that he has always had uh complete complete creative control and really has been able to bat back studio meddling in his films. And in a sense, I think what's interesting, and and one of the reasons why I was excited to talk about Woody Allen is that in having watched so many of his later films, I don't know there's a filmmaker in all of film history who more embodies the 70s ethos of filmmaking than Woody Allen. Because of that creative control, because he is willing to challenge his audience. I heard a great story the other day. Somebody asked him once, do you um ever l listen to what test audiences say about your films? And he said, No, I'm not interested in a dialogue with the people who go to see my movies.
SPEAKER_06Yes. Or or I think the he said, I'm not interested in collaborating with my audience on my on my pictures.
SPEAKER_05Right. Uh and I mean that uncompromising sort of viewpoint about his filmmaking has, I think, you know, created a canon of films that are I mean, I don't there's not many American filmmakers you can quite compare with Woody Allen's uh uh you know, his his fifty-some films that he's made. And so this begins with this movie.
SPEAKER_06Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah, although he did share his rough cuts with, you know, people he trusted, Diane Keaton among them for for for many, many, many years, and and did value their input. My favorite story about this is when someone asked him if he had ever thought about shooting a alternate happy ending for the Purple Rose of Cairo, and he said, this is the alternate happy ending.
SPEAKER_05I mean, a lot of his films, he does shoot multiple endings. I know we talked about Han and Her Sisters last week. There is a less happy ending, and apparently he hates the happy ending that's in that film. I think it's one of the best endings to any of his films, even though it's it's unlike it's it's a w w um non-woody happy ending, but it still works. Um I think it's handing about another woman, too. I think it's a I think it's a happy ending also. I don't I don't think it's as obvious a happy ending as Han and Her Sisters. Um he has taken the 70s ethos into you know the 80s, 90s, aughts, and and even to today. And um all of his films have this kind of not the early ones, but his films have this kind of moral ambiguity. They have they don't have happy endings, generally speaking. Um they're often very bleak. Have you just watched Crimes and Misdemeanors? Holy shit, is that a bleak movie? I mean, that is a bleak worldview of in that movie scene with husbands and wives, which I meant in last week. Um that's not reflected in these movies. And I think that's interesting. Like when you when you look at this movie, Take the Money and Run, I mean is it like sometimes hard to believe this is the same guy who made another woman?
SPEAKER_06Well, you know, it was a journey, so I can I uh that rolls off my back. Okay. I mean what I find impressive is the constant striving, right? That what do people do with success? Because there's an enormous temptation to recreate the thing that made you successful. And the minority approach is to try and do brand new things. And he was a which he was a brand new thing kind of a guy.
SPEAKER_05Right. Except I would say in these early films, right? I mean in Lease Until Love and Death. The first couple several films are basically just very sort of silly, loosely, you know, uh coherent uh comedies without any kind of really deeper story to them.
SPEAKER_06Although the the the issues start to slowly creep in across time.
SPEAKER_05Right. And actually, let's get to the next film because I want to talk about something that I think is really interesting about these early films. That's bananas. Uh this was in 1971, I believe, he did bananas. Uh this again is the one that is is is the is the set in um it's sort of both set in New York where he is a um He's a product tester. There's some good physical comedy around that. He meets Louise Lasser again, as I mentioned earlier. She convinces him to join up in this revolution about San Marcos. He goes down there, becomes trans revolution, and so forth. Uh what are your favorite elements of but you said earlier this is like this is a movie that you have more emotional connection to. Talk a little bit about why that is.
SPEAKER_06Aaron Ross Powell I've been thinking about it just as we've been talking, and and I suspect that it really has its finger on the pulse of the utter absurdity of life, that he takes all of these relatively real-world situations and exposes the expanse of comedy that's underpinning all of our existence. And so the opening of the movie with the kind of Howard Cosell's wide world of sports coverage, you know, of an assassination in this republic, it's just brilliant, but it also the blending of the idea of the sporting event, you know, and the news event and the coverage. You know, Cousell was most famous, uh, you know, probably for football, but also for calling boxing. And so when the the president is shot and he does, and he's down, you know, it's like it's coming right out of, you know, the way Coastell would have would have called a boxing match. And it's it's absolutely brilliant. And then you have the framing of the other end, but the consummation of the marriage is also presented to us as if it was Coastell calling a fight. You know, they they interrupt it because there's a cut. There's a cut, you know. There's a cut, right? We're gonna have the fight doctor come in and uh you know check him out, but you know, they didn't stop the action. And so that's you know, taking these quasi-normal situations and exposing the absurdities of society more generally. I mean, that sounds bigger than perhaps a funny comedy uh can aspire to, but I think it does do that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean I look, the CoSell stuff is I think is just hilarious. And it it's uh it is a bit of a social satire, too, right? It's turning it's basically turning politics as entertainment. Uh and I do think there's there's something, there's something, there's some deeper message here, although it gets it gets kind of you know covered up with all of the the comedy. But there's also so many just great lines in this movie. I mean the the the scene when the rebel leader becomes president and he gives his his speech and he says that uh that for now on the language of San Marcos is going to be Swedish. Yes. That every child who's below the age of 16 years old is now 16 years old, um, that you have to wear underwear on the outside. I've used those jokes repeatedly in references to Trump uh because I just think it is it it's like it's it's political insanity is kind of what it comes down to. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_06Tragically, that speech hits too close to home too. It hits very close to home. People can check it out if they don't believe us, but it's it's quite remarkable. But it also touches on a non-trivial point that uh again weaves its way through his entire output, which is you know, the old Lord Acton comment about power corrupting. You know, that the when the guy was a rebel, you know, he was idealistic and he had these ideas about how to run the country, but then when he got power, you know, suddenly, as I said, you know, his eyes became a little glassy, right?
SPEAKER_05And he's that he says, like, you're gonna be the leader and people are gonna be free from democracy. He says, Well, why are you getting so glassy-eyed all of a sudden? Like it's it's a great line, exactly. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_06And then he says he says, you know, I am the state, right? I mean, this is you know, this is But can we pick up on this point?
SPEAKER_05Because I thought this was one of the really interesting things about these films that I think is sort of striking, that this movie, uh to a lesser extent, take the money and run, but definitely sleeper and definitely love and death are really heavy political content. There's a lot of political commentary in these films. You just mentioned about bananas, about how a leader takes power and all of a sudden it like it goes to his head. I mean, there's some reference to that in Sleeper, there's some reference to that in Love and Death. Um, in in the um uh Take the Money and Run, there is a direct reference to the trial of the Chicago Six, the scene where he is he is uh bound and gagged in uh uh the courtroom. There's a really funny joke about J. Eager Hoover that she test he testifies as a as a black woman.
SPEAKER_07Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um there is a really overtly political element to these films. Uh and even in Sleeper, especially Sleeper is about an authoritarian government and and this the effort to overthrow it. And he, you know, it's uh the way that the film evolves is Diane Keaton becomes part of the rebellion, part of the communist rebellion, and he mocks that as well. Um it's a it's a he's he's got lots of targets here. And and I think uh and sleeper, of course, has a direct reference to Richard Nixon, who they uh the people in the future ask about Nixon, and he says uh they say they say they joke as there's no reference to him in the history books. He says, well, you know, whenever he left the White House, the Secret Service would check the silverware. Now, by the way, this was before Watergate, just so we're clear.
SPEAKER_06So I mean it's yeah, certainly it was before Watergate, but Nixon did have a reputation even.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, of course, of course. But didn't somebody run an ad against him in the so awful. Right. That said, would you buy a used car from this man? Right, exactly. But but uh but more of the thing that's got me is the reference to like the in the future they've said he must have done something so awful as president that they don't talk about him. And again, it's before Watergate. So uh what's interesting about that, and again, I think what just before I get into the other films, Love and Death, he does there again. This is a commentary on Napoleon, a commentary on you know, uh uh political tyranny. In fact, there's a great joke. When you're living out of the French or the Russians, he says the the Tsar and Napoleon are the same, just the Napoleon is shorter. Yeah. But I think what's interesting is that if you look at his his films after that, there's no political content.
SPEAKER_06That's yes, it does slip away. He moved beyond that in that he became more interested in interpersonal relationships than than anything else. And and that's another type of maturity.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think that's what I found interesting is that you know, I was thinking about and I've seen most of his films, I don't think there's any of them that have any overtly political content. It just disappears in his canon. He really never goes back to it.
SPEAKER_06I think that's right. And I I do think that that's not a bad thing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I actually kind of agree. I think that Woody Allen is more interesting talking about interpersonal relationships, talking about you know, faith, um, talking about you know, luck and chance, and those are obviously big themes in his filmmaking, and those are the things that dominate his filmmaking from that point on, and it and this sort of political content disappears. Um on bananas, I just want to mention just two other things. Um the scene where he goes to buy magazines and he picks up commentary and harpers and national review, he grabs a copy of Orgasm, he goes to the counter, and the guy can't find the price. He goes, This man wants to buy a copy of Orgasm. Yes. Which then followed up by a scene on the subway with a young Sylvester Stallone, actually, ironically. Yes.
SPEAKER_06Some of his best work, in my view.
SPEAKER_05When we talk about Rocky, it's gonna be ugly, isn't it? Um I the other the other thing in that movie that I have to mention is the the snake bite scene, which is one of my favorite uh actually all the scenes of them, him as a revolutionary when he does camouflage and the the rebel peas on him, when he goes to get uh takeout food.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, see that's my favorite rebel scene. When they go to get you know a thousand sandwiches to go from the local takeout.
SPEAKER_05Uh and they have the guys pushing the wheelbarrows of coleslaw down the street.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And he has to get one BLT after or one like chicken salad or something that just one person wants. It's it's hilarious. It's great. Um I mean, I think that movie is is is really uneven. I think some of the jokes are really funny, some of them kind of don't land as well, but the highs of that movie are great.
SPEAKER_06Aaron Powell I think my all-time favorite joke in Bananas is when the rebels, who now, of course, turned rather difficult, start to serially execute all of the members of the ancient regime. And so Woody's standing next to the guy and he says, You've been accused of, you know, murdering 50 people and torturing 100 people, and he goes on and on to listen to his crimes. Uh, how do you plead? And he says, guilty with an explanation.
SPEAKER_07Explanation. That's right.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I think one reason why this movie doesn't work as well, I think is because the the female star in this movie is Louise Lasser. Again, they were married and he she continued to star in some of his movies. I just it there's a there's one wonderful scene where she says all the reasons why she she says I don't want to be together anymore. And he's like, is it because I'm not funny? Is it because I'm not attractive? No, that's not it. It's because I'm boring. No, that's not it. He goes through every possible reason. She's like, no, you are, but that's not the reason why I don't want to be with you anymore. I just don't find the connection as as she's not as funny for whatever reason. Maybe it's the material, maybe it's her. She's not as funny as some of as like Diane Keaton is and some of the other people.
SPEAKER_06I mean that's setting the bar a little high. She was a very interesting person, and this was a good opportunity to mention the most recent, and I think will likely be the definitive Woody Allen biography. Maybe it's one or two years old now by Patrick McGilligan, who has done a lot of really fine biographies. He's done a Fritz Lang one, he's done so many. I think he's done a Hitchcock one. And it's out there, and those of you who are really interested in the gritty details of all of the films, uh, it is comprehensive, and I think it will stand as a definitive biography. And I mention it now because he got into aspects of the tumultuous Alan Lasser marriage and relationship that were all new to me. And I've kind of been through several Woody Allen biographies, and he really this is the most comprehensively researched Woody Allen biography that I've I've seen, and I I've read a ton of them.
SPEAKER_05Aaron Powell That's interesting. Now I know he was married at a young age. Yes. And you don't you don't hear a lot about that, but he's made a lot of jokes about that, his first wife.
SPEAKER_06Aaron Ross Powell Yes, it she sued him to stop him from making jokes. That's why you don't hear as much about her because you hear much better anymore.
SPEAKER_05But they were married for a very short period of time, if I remember correctly, right? For like maybe a year or two.
SPEAKER_06Aaron Powell But it was the you know, I think they had a a a reasonably long relationship. And then they got he was, you know, they were very young, and it went on for a while.
SPEAKER_05Aaron Ross Powell Right, right. I mean the one thing I always say about things about Woody Allen is like, you know, he makes a lot of movies about just the hopelessness of love and and failures in marriage. And you know, based on his early life, you understand he had a lot of slight messed up relationships. He's been married to his current wife, uh Sue Need Previn, for how many years is it now? Like thirty something years, I believe. Yeah, they've been together for over 30 years. 33 years, maybe a long time.
SPEAKER_06And they've two kids together all. Aaron Powell It's also interesting to remember that he is this he is a little older. I mean, he he is a creature of the 30s, 40s, and 50s. So that he comes to the sexual revolution of the mid-60s and early 70s as an adult. Uh he's not in and so he came up in the mores and practices of an earlier generation. And so he's kind of well aware of a lot of those tensions. But it's a lot of his influences are earlier than we usually associate with 70-style filmmakers.
SPEAKER_05That's right. That's a good point, actually, because he's probably in what his late 30s, early 40s when he's making these films. Is that is that right? I think it's a very good thing.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, he's he's born at 35.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so so this is so this movie, Bananas Come Down, he's 30, I think he's 36. Yeah. So yeah, you're right. And some of the other filmmakers you talked about are a lot younger. Um and and again, I I I mentioned this earlier. He does come from a I don't say borscht belt, but certainly a uh a culture of one-liners, a culture of nightclub humor that isn't so much the cutting-edge comedy or something that we think of today. It's a very different kind of comedic sensibility.
SPEAKER_06And and has kind of different influences. Although I do think he was among, again, that generation I've talked about on so many occasions, that were transforming the nature of what stand-up comedy was. And so there, the influence in Woody Allen's case is more Mortsall, the legendary figure from the 50s who would kind of get up on stage with a newspaper and kind of riff on the news of the day. And the more kind of personal storytelling, right? That's not, you know, the rhythms can be borschbelt, but the personal storytelling that's novel.
SPEAKER_05Right. And it's not really the Lenny Bruce style of humor that was taken in that era as well. Very different kind of approach. Okay, so the next film we're gonna hit on here. Before we go to it, give a little shout-out.
SPEAKER_06Take the money and run, bananas, both co-written with uh Mickey Rose. Just want to acknowledge that.
SPEAKER_05Aaron Powell That's right. Thank you for bringing that up. Again, those are the those are the first two sort of early, early funny ones we're talking about. He does play it against Sam here. Now, I did not re-watch this, but I know you had a few things you wanted to you wanted to say about this.
SPEAKER_06I just wanted to say that I think it's a terrific little movie. It's not a great movie, uh, but I think it's worth watching. But also, as I was talking about with Play It Against Sam, if you're trying to piece together the trajectory of the career, I think it's essential. It's based on a play, I think, from '69, and that's where he meets both uh Diane Keaton and Tony Roberts. And they played those roles in that play, you know, on the stage. Um, and so it's also steeped in 40 cinema. Uh, and again, that speaks to the influences on Alan's filmmaking that are a little different than the ones we often associate with the new Hollywood. And it was shot by our old friend Owen Roysman, features our other old friends who's in OnSpot. There's just a lot going on in this movie as a as a piece of the early career puzzle that even though it was directed by Herbert Ross, it comes straight from Woody Allen's stage play and has this set of people in it who would be so important to him throughout the directory of his entire career. I just hate to kind of jump over it without making those quick comments, but now I've made those quick comments. Then now we can move on.
SPEAKER_05But I think I think you're right. I mean, it's not again, I I think we really do we are sticking to ones that he's directed. He did not direct us. Uh but uh, you know, it does, again, I think you're right, tell something about his evolution. It's interesting because the next movie he makes is everything you always wanted to know about sex, but were afraid to ask. And that's a tough one for me because I've never seen this when I was a kid and just thinking it was the funniest thing I'd ever seen. Uh but watching it now, it just doesn't hold up as well. And it feels almost like um he's treading water with this movie because it doesn't really it doesn't really move his career along uh from bananas because first of all, there's not even really a story. It's uh my what I understand is that he's there's a book out called Everything You Wants to Know Wants to Know About Sex, we're afraid to ask. And he was a huge, huge, huge bestseller uh from 1969.
SPEAKER_06And uh, and again, let's remember basic sexual knowledge in American society is just so god-awful at this time that a book like that was was very valuable for people.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. And so he, yeah, so he saw the he saw something about the book, he decided it'd be funny to write a movie about this, writes this movie, and it's seven different uh sort of skits. Um, and I'll just I have the list here. It's do aphrodisiacs work? What is sodomy? Why do some women have trouble reaching an orgasm? Are transvestites homosexuals? What are sex perverts? Are the findings of doctors and clinics who do sexual research and experiments accurate? And what happens during ejaculation? Before we get into our favorite bits from this movie, I mean, this is '72. This feels like a very subversive movie to make in 1972. I mean, am I wrong?
SPEAKER_06I mean, yes, but it's on the cusp of, you know, everything that's in the air at that time. I mean, the suddenness of the transformation of what was acceptable to say in polite society, it was you know, the critic Molly Haskell has a phrase for this. She says, suddenly all the guardrails were gone. And so I think in that sense, uh sure it's revolutionary, but it's also a part of this total sea change in the conversation in society. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I just it's it's you watch something in 72 and you think that five years earlier it just would have been unimaginable movie like this could actually get made. Oh, absolutely. Um and some of the images in this movie, I mean, the idea that you're going to show what happens inside the body during ejaculation, that there's a giant, giant breast like you know, roaming the countryside. I mean, this is just really there's a as a whole story about me.
SPEAKER_06One of the few jokes that I love in that movie, which is they usually travel in pairs. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_05They usually travel in pairs. That's right. Now, so you don't like this one as much. You probably wrote these one the lowest of all of them. Is that is that right?
SPEAKER_06Aaron Ross Powell You know, except for the fact that the last one, the ejaculation one, is I think a brilliant, absolutely brilliant short film. There's Tony Randall in it as my favorite character. Uh he is the it it it has all of these imagined parts of the body, the stomach and the brain and all these things going on. And Tony Randall is kind of in control of the brain, and so he has to monitor all the parts and keep keep making sure that everything's going correctly. And I I have a soft spot for Tony Randall, but I think the role is really a good one for him. And, you know, even the simple visual gags about the dump truck coming along to clean up the linguine that they had for dinner, because that's all got to be, you know, managed as they move along with this evening that features a date with a co-ed, as they used to call them from NYU. Uh this uh it's it's brilliant.
SPEAKER_05The best thing is when he says, um I don't know if they don't know if we're gonna have sex tonight, and then they they they they show the sort of the eyes, and she says, I went to NYU, and Daniel's like, no, it might happen. It might happen. Yes. But um, okay, so uh let's get to that one last, because that is by far the best one here. I I think the the Gene Wilder with Dolly the Sheep is hilarious, and and really shows off Gene Wilder's like unique comedic talents. And why he's in so many great comedies. We're talking about young Frankenstein. I think he's brilliant. Um the scene where he meets Dolly the Sheep for the first time, and he says, you know, I can't do this. You know, I I'm gonna call the police. Then he meets Dolly and suddenly he suddenly softens into sort of falling in love with Dolly. It's just it's hilarious.
SPEAKER_06The way he pulls it off, it's great. I agree, and he pulls it off because he plays it completely straight, right? He's it's completely straight. Which is a very brave thing to do for an actor. Absolutely. You know, when they're too too, you know, when the role calls for you to fall in love with a sheep. Yes, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_05I mean, i it it's he does play it straight. He plays it as if he's really in love with a sheep, and it's it's pretty damn funny. Um as far as the other skits, the aphrodisiacs work is just the first one that starts Lenny Redgrave as the queen, Alan as the court jester, um, and he wants to have sex with the queen and he needs an aphrodisiac. This one just doesn't work for me. Uh I don't think it's that funny. The one about why do some women have trouble uh reaching orgasm, this is really sort of like a takeoff on on Fellini films, right?
SPEAKER_06And or Antonioni. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Antonioni, sure. Trevor Burrus, Jr. But it does situate, you know, again, Woody Allen as as the member of that culture that spent the late 50s and early 60s at the art houses watching foreign films. And so this is him kind of sending up the Italian side of that.
SPEAKER_05Aaron Powell But I I want to just say for the record. Yeah, it's very limited, but I guess to say for the record that this scene contains maybe my favorite Woody Allen joke ever, which is that it is in Italian and it's subtitled. And there's a lot and that the the premise is that he's married to, and Louise Laser plays his wife, and she's frigid in bed. She doesn't want to have sex, only wants to have sex in public. And he tells a story about how they had sex in a confessional at a church, and he says that he got almost got a Charlie horse, and he uses the phrase crumpe ala gampe. And I swear to God, that line, I still use it to this day. It is the it is to me the funniest line, maybe of anybody out on the film. Crumpante. The way he says it, crumpe alagante, aligante. That is very much a me joke, and so that's will always be funny for me because of that scene alone. Um the other ones, uh that are transvestite homosexuals, really does not work. And I actually think it's almost a little bit offensive. Um I mean, not offensive, but just like really simplistic and and not very it it doesn't hold up at all, let's put it that way.
SPEAKER_06Aaron Powell Sure, but you know, again, it's 1972 out there. I assume that was a chapter of the book.
SPEAKER_05Yes. And it portrays a middle-aged man played by uh Lou Jacoby who basically goes over to his in-law's house and begins wearing uh dresses. And then he gets thrown out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I don't think it's uh remotely any good, but I do want to rally in favor of the notion that for its time it was more progressive than offensive because people would lump together different non-traditional behaviors into one kind of ridiculed group. And so in the book, in the original book, that was probably an em they were probably making important points about those distinctions.
SPEAKER_05I mean, there is one other bit with it's like a game show where we'll talk to guess their perversion. And one of the guests is a rabbi whose per who whose dream is to be uh high up be and beaten while his wife uh sits at his feet and eats pork. And I have to say that's just a brilliant premise. And uh again, these movies have like some heavy Jewish content. Uh and that is a pretty that is pretty funny. And then the last, the other one is the uh the giant breast, which uh this is John Carradine who plays a Dr. Bernardo. It's kind of a I guess a moss Masters and Johnson takeoff of some sort. Yeah. It's uh it doesn't work as well. No. But what happens during ejaculation? Now this really is the highlight. And there's some great we got Burt Reynolds is in this, Tony Randall is in this. You you said it earlier your favorite joke, but there's one line in the scene.
SPEAKER_06I already I I you already mentioned the one about the how they changed their assessment of how the evening is going to go based on the fact that she's at NYU, which I always appreciated. And I like the gang in the brain uh the most, but that's because I'm I'm so fond of Tony Randall, and it's one of those parts that is a real Tony Randall part. Oh, absolutely. And the way they're talking up there, and you're saying, Oh, have you seen her? No, I haven't even seen her yet. So we go with the little goggles to kind of get, you know, check out with the eyes to see what she looks like, and they kind of talk a little bit about that. It's just a brilliant short film.
SPEAKER_05I but I do love the idea of having like the overall like foreman and the the like the almost like mind workers as they they struggle to get the penis erect. Like in the that is really brilliant. But they had problems before, but but I heard that was all mental.
SPEAKER_06I heard that was all mental, right?
SPEAKER_05Well, they find what happens, of course, is they find that the priest, the conscience, is interfering in the brain and trying to like, you know, he's like, Do you know these two are not even married? Uh so once the conscience is out of the way, they can proceed. Uh, but there's also, of course, there's a sperm, and Woody Allen plays a sperm. And this has my my other favorite line from this movie, which is that it's all these guys basically playing sperm, and then they they they the camera focuses on uh uh a black sperm who says, What am I doing here? Yeah. What am I doing here? It's such a great line. It's such a great little gag. And this again, this is a really smart premise. It's very funny. Yeah. I can imagine that when he came up with this, it was it was uh a lot of fun to write.
SPEAKER_06But if you're going to check this one out at home, folks, just skip ahead to the last bit.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's it's really not. I mean, it's I like I said, I as a as a like 14-year-old when I saw it the first time, I thought it was hilarious. But it doesn't hold up as well. It's not as funny. And I think if we talk about the evolution of the really funny ones, it's kind of like treading water. You don't really feel that he's moving too forward with anything. So that gets us to our next film, which I think is I I take your point earlier that this is a real evolution of of him as a filmmaker. 1973's Sleeper. Now, Woody Allen uh plays uh a guy who went to the hospital in New York. He owned a uh what's it called, or like an organic um uh uh food what's it called? Yoda no health food store. Health food store, thank you. Health food store in Greenwich Village, which we got Diane Keaton later calls Greenberg Village, and he goes into a coma, weeks up 200 years later in the future. And uh it's a lot of physical comedy, and it is uh it is also the first pairing of him with Diane Keaton. And I think that is actually what makes this movie so good. And you have this one that's probably ranked as your one of your highest as far as a favorite of the early funny ones. Just tell us of the why.
SPEAKER_06I think it's just a big step forward. I I again I don't know if it has as many burst out laughing specific jokes in it, but I think there's a more thoughtful aspect of this one, and we're starting to see the thinking Woody a little more setting up. But also it as the thing you don't like about it, which I think is fair, is it's very you called it slapstick. But here we get a hand-there are a handful of influences, especially on the early Woodies, and Charlie Chaplin is one of them. And so there's a lot of homage to Chaplin here, and you have to really like Chaplin to appreciate the homages. But there were supposed to be in this film even more extended, silent sequences of physical comedy, and they thought that they didn't they thought they worked well as scenes, but slowed down the pace of the picture. My understanding is there's one about Woody trying to work in an automated kitchen, and you know, one disastrous thing happens after another. But it was cut, and this is another uh of those examples where this movie was cut down by about 40 percent. They shot a ton of stuff. And the original rough cut was much, much longer, and they were just cutting and cutting and cutting and cutting. It's again another one of those um stories about the tremendous work being done in post-production. I really enjoy the references that we've already talked about to authoritarianism, which is an important theme in this movie, but also to media and politics, which is something that came up in in bananas as well. Um I I have a few laugh-out loud jokes here, though. I think when they're again, what happens is they're trying to ask this guy from 200 years ago questions about history so they can fill in their own knowledge. And I I think there's an Albert Shanker joke who was the head of the Trevor Burrus, Jr. The Albert Shanker joke is uh what is I it's I think it's you know, this this man got hold of a nuclear weapon. A nuclear bomb.
SPEAKER_05Why he goes after uh uh Albert Shanker, uh I don't understand, but it's hilarious, Jim.
SPEAKER_06Because he was, you know, a very New York figure in the news, you know, and there was a big teacher's strike, and he was probably kind of strident and combative. And in in that moment, it was probably very timely and hilarious, and there are a lot of references to going through the kind of popular cultural issues of its day and Woody Allen's character making very clever observations about it. But again, I think the politics here, you know, as you mentioned, they're in this film. This is a kind of uh Huxley-like authoritarian followership, right? That people are made to be happy and tranquil, and so they don't want to question authority. And then, of course, and this is something that nobody watching this film today will ever appreciate, the the orgasmatron, uh, which is where people go into uh a little small closet and and kind of have automated sex. Well, that was actually a thing. Uh it was associated with uh William Reich, who actually wrote some very interesting books about fascism, uh, one of them called The Mass Psychology of Fascism, I would recommend. But William Reich was also a kind of a wacky guy, and he had a lot of theories about sexuality, and he invented some quack invention called the organ energy accumulator. Many people we've heard of owned these, like Jack Kerouac, like Sean Connery, like Saul Bellow, like Norman Mailer. So, you know, Reich was an influential, if strange, figure at this time. Um Jack Nicholson uh was a big follower of Reich at this time. Really? And so you know you had the hilarious jokes about the orgasmotron, but again, in the cultural moment of the movie, I think it's even funnier. And so I think that it's it's if you're looking for those jokes, a lot of them land in ways that are more subtle, even in a movie that is largely defined by extended sequences of silent slapstick comedy. So that's definitely true. And that's not my bag either. But I do think I found this film, Sleeper, to be a major step forward from bananas, which is which I like more. I enjoy bananas more, but filmmaker for filmmaker, pound for pound, thought this was a step forward. I thought it had some things to say, and not to get too far ahead of ourselves, but I do need to link Sleeper with Love and Death and Annie Hall. I'm not going to go all the way and get ahead of ourselves a little bit and do that. No, bring it on. I want to hear this. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Sleeper ends with, you know, there are only two things that happen once in life, you know, sex and death. And that really gestures at the title of the next movie Love and Death. Right. Uh and what's the joke he says there, but at least after death, you're not nauseous. Right. But then in Love and Death, what we'll talk about a little bit more than we talked about the other movies, the very end of the film has Woody talking into the camera with his thoughts about life, the universe, and everything. The opening of Annie Hall has Woody Allen's character standing, staring into the camera and talking about his thoughts about those essentially those same topics. And so the way these three films link together, and again, in this early, I mean, Keaton was in a lot more Woody Allen movies, but this this early Keaton trilogy, I think this is these is the essential bridge towards Woody Allen as a more serious filmmaker. And so I think there's just a lot in Sleeper to take seriously. And again, I find a lot of things in it funny. But yes, it's defined by long sequences that are supposed to be homages to a Charlie Chaplin style comedy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Right. I mean, I think like the I mentioned earlier the scene where of the fighting with the giant um the giant fruit and vegetables, where they they he and this uh you know uh guard are f slipping on the banana peel through a gasmetron, uh the fight sort of inside of the robot thing when he wakes up, the whole process of that. I just I don't know. I mean, I think maybe I was younger, I thought it was funnier, and I hadn't seen this movie in a long time. This movie is very hard to find. It's not streaming anywhere, it's only on uh the Internet Archive you can find it there. And um, you know, I just I think the slapstick humor just didn't work for me as well. I will mention my one favorite line in this movie, which is when Diane Keene says to him, I can't believe you haven't had sex for 200 years. And he says, 204 if you count my marriage.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Uh that's that's a great line. And that's you know, that's sort of the Woody Allen kind of humor. Um and I also love the scene where he's eating the food. It's like, he's like, this food is awful. I could have made a fortune at selling it in my health food store. Uh, but in general, it just doesn't, it doesn't work for me as well. Although obviously having Diane Keaton in the movie helps a lot. She is hilarious. She's a great comedic actress.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05So we do really see, I think, more of that in in Love and Death. It's interesting that you see that connection. I I hadn't thought about that between Sleeper and these other two movies, Love and Death and Annie Hall, because it is really much those two are much more literate comedies. Yes. And this one is much more of a slapstick comedy. Yes. It really is.
SPEAKER_06Um but if you think of the whole career as almost like a trapeze act, right, where he's swinging from one to the next to the next to the next. So yeah, so Sleeper comes before Love and Death becomes Annie Hall, but I think it's an essential trap uh, you know, whatever you call the single trapeze thing in that process as he's kind of swinging from one to the next. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. Swing back and forth.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I mean, I I think I take your point that this is a much more ambitious film than certainly everything one of us ex is afraid to ask, but also the early ones. I mean, there is there is an actual kind of story here. There is there is there is sort of political and social commentary uh in this film. I mean, I do think this is probably his most political film. I think would you agree with that? Definitely. There's a lot of heavy political content in this film. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_06And you know, the thing that really lands again, we don't like to dwell on these things, is this whole 40s emphasis on authoritarian followership. I don't want to talk about this at length, but we spend so much time thinking about the authoritarians and Not enough time thinking about how you can't have an authoritarian without followers. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05And you see that in bananas and you see that in this movie as well. Aaron Ross Powell But that's one of the core themes of Sleeper, right?
SPEAKER_06So Right.
SPEAKER_05And you see that in the whole final sort of third of the film, and Diane Keaton um uh sort of joins the rebellion. By the way, I do want to give a short.
SPEAKER_06Hazard political awakening.
SPEAKER_05Hazard Political Awakening. I also want to give a shout out to one of my other favorite scenes, which is when they're trying to get uh uh Woody Allen to remember his past, and they do this fake dinner with his parents. Yeah. Uh listen to Diane Keaton say uh Oi Veheshmir is one of the highlights of the movie. Uh highlights of Jewish filmmaking, frankly. Uh it's great. It's a great scene. It's a great movie. It's a great movie. I don't I I do say great. It's a good movie. I don't love it as much as the other ones do, I think because of the slapstick humor, but it does get us to the movie we're going to talk about at greater length today, 1975's Love and Death. This movie was directed by Woody Allen, written by Woody Allen. It stars Woody Allen and Diane Keaton, along with uh Harold Gould, Jessica Harper, and a number of other Russian actors who I don't know a lot about. Uh cinematography is by Gislaine Cloquet, uh, edited by Ralph Rosenblum and Ron Kailish. The movie was actually filmed in Hungary and France. Uh, it's interesting about this that later in his career, Woody Allen would do a lot of films uh in Europe. But after this apparently experience of filming these movies in Hungary and France was so horrific that he vowed never to go back to Europe. But he did eventually. Uh, it tells the story of Boris Groshenko, a uh Russian living during the Napoleonic era, who uh goes to war and falls in love with his cousin, played by Diane Keaton. It is a takeoff on the Leo Tolstoy book Um War and Death, as well as a host of other War and Peace. Uh what'd I say? You say War and Death because the movie's Love and Death. Excuse me. It's based on sorry. It is uh the Leo Tolstoy book War and Peace. Thank you very much, Jonathan, for correcting me on that. And a number of other uh bits of Russian literature. Now, we talked earlier that we both I think this is a great movie. You think this is a very good movie, but I think you would agree this movie stands head and shoulders above the other early funny ones. Is that fair enough to say?
SPEAKER_06I mean, although again, you know, this is just me being me. If I had to sit down and watch one movie tonight, I probably would choose Bananas, even though Love and Death is clearly the better movie. I mean, the the the more the higher quality film. And again, it is a big step forward, I think, more thematically than visually. I think I think even Love and Death, the camera is still chasing the jokes, but it has so much more to say, and it gets into, you know, in a comedic way, a lot of the heavy terrain that, you know, would we come to associate with Woody Allen films later on.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it does. I mean, it it nods at it. I mean, it this movie is really like it's a push and pull because there is some heavy thematic um elements to them, heavy sort of questions about love and death and about belief in God. Uh and but there's also a lot of just really great slapstick humor in this. So you really do see this kind of like we call it a transition film. It really is. It is really a transition between the early funny ones and what he would end up developing in Annie Hall um and Manhattan. Um I I think also, I mean, I said this before, I think joke for joke, this might be his funniest movie. But I think what's also near about this movie, too, is that he uh you see in all of his movies, 50 movies he's done, he uh he so often nods to his favorite filmmakers, particularly Ingmar Bergman. And God does it, it is all over this movie. I mean, the Bergman references, the Seven Seal reference, when you see the Grim Reaper. But there's one you mentioned that I was gonna mention also that about some of the early comedians that he that he refers to in this movie, so at least obliquely.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I mean, there are two more references here in Love and Death that are really important to mention because they would carry through with him. One of them is kind of unexpected, which is that the rhythm, the speech rhythms of this movie really bear the imprint of Bob Hope. And I'm not talking about Bob Hope, the stand-up comedian. I'm talking about Bob Hope, the kind of film character, especially in the Hope Crosby Road movies. And Woody Allen has emphasized just how influenced he was by the rhythm of Bob Hope's speech, and he considers him a a more major figure than, say, I do. But definitely you can hear, especially in the kind of cowardice aspects of the character, the the way in which he speaks, the rhythm in which he speaks, they do bear the influence of of Bob Hope. And it's most visible here, but once you hear it said out loud, you can see it later on in many of his other films, how that language cadence was so imprinted on the way in which kind of Woody Allen's filmmaking comedic mannerisms often come across. And then there's also some Marx Brothers stuff here, and again, this would follow through uh throughout his career. You see, you know, the the Marx Brothers coming up explicitly in Hannah and her sisters, coming up explicitly in Everyone Says I Love You, and is another major influence on Woody Allen's the things that affected the way in which he thought about art. And again, this I've said this maybe three times already in in this one discussion, but it drags us back into the 30s and 40s. And you know, even Woody Allen's as a as a jazz aficionado and as a jazz musician. We're not talking about 50s kind of bebop here, right? We're talking about a more traditional style of jazz that roots back in the 30s and 40s. And so you have those influences all there to be seen in this movie and later as well. But again, for me, love and death is the topically more mature Woody Allen with the Jay Giles band Woody Allen, right? Which is the love stinks, right? I love her and she loves him and he loves her, whatever. It's that constant not being in love with the right person or not getting the love you wish you got from the person that you're longing after. Um you also get, as you already mentioned, this navigating life in a godless universe. And once you're in a godless universe, then that presents individual characters with more profound ethical dilemmas. Because if you're in a Godful universe, then you don't really have to think much about it. You just follow the rules, you play the game, and there are no ethical dilemmas. But if God leaves the building, then suddenly you have to sit around deciding, you know, what's right, what's wrong, what kind of trade-offs and compromises are appropriate or that you're willing to make, and all that. And this movie, you know, in a comedic way, is is filled with those conversations, and you know, especially between Woody Allen and Diane Keaton, but he covers it with satire and humor, but he definitely wants to talk about it.
SPEAKER_05I mean, the Diane Keaton thing is important. It's interesting you bring this up about sort of unrequited love. I mean, he's in love with cousin Sonia, who doesn't love him. Yes. She um she, how shall we say, is um promiscuous, right? She sleeps with lots of men in this movie. She's in love with his brother Ivon, and who he says at one point if that if the um what does he say? The joke is about if if they had s if the French had sex with Ivon, they'd throw up or something like that. I mean, he he thinks Ivon is gross. Ivan is kind of gross, actually. And at the beginning of the movie, like Yvonne rejects her. She tries to get married to, I forget the name of the character, who then drops dead. Yes. Instead she marries the herring merchant, which does create an enormous amount of great physical humor because it does seem the herring merchant is actually having a sexual relationship with a herring.
SPEAKER_06Um when he dies is possibly my my favorite joke in this movie because she doesn't love the herring merchant, and so they're in bed together, and he leans over to touch her shoulder, and she says famously, not here. Not here. Yes, not here.
SPEAKER_05It's such a good line. But I also love the scene when when he shoots himself because people have been asking this version. They said she slept around. And I I I knew that wasn't true. And they show these three doctors in the room where they're all chuckling to themselves and trying to avoid the truth. Um but uh yeah, so she marries a hammer, she put, but of course, she's in love with Boris. And then eventually Boris, and we are getting a little ahead of ourselves here, he cons her into marrying him because he's supposed to do a duel and he survives the duel. And uh but she doesn't really love him until I guess by the end of the movie she does sort of love him. But it's not as it's not as as committed a love as he clearly feels for her.
SPEAKER_06Yes. It is it's definitely there's definitely some ambivalence there. Yeah, I would say so. I'd say so. Uh and you know, and the duel, the duel gets you into that which you mentioned already, the Tolstoy territory, who is another important influence on Woody Allen. And as as if you have emphasized even more than I, you know, Dostoevsky is also in the house, and he he makes a cameo appearance in one of your favorite Woody Allen movies, Match Point, does Dostoevsky. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And crimes and misdemeanors, obviously.
SPEAKER_05That's a lot of crimes and misdemeanors in that one as well. But yeah, Match Point too. Um I do love there's a scene at the end of the movie where he he's about to be executed and his father visits him, and they go back and forth with um, he says, if the father says, remember that nice boy Roskalnikov, and he said he's killed two ladies, and he says, What a nasty story. So I heard about it from the Caramazo brothers, and then he says he was an idiot, and yeah, I heard he was a gambler. You know, he could be your double, all these references to Duskasky titles. It's brilliant comedy. Um, there's just so many great lines in this movie. You mentioned the Marx brothers. Uh, there's a great joke about um a guy selling uh beers on the battlefield, which is very much a reference to Doug Soup. There's references to Persona at the end, a shot with reference to Diane Keaton and I think Jessica Harper's the actress. Yes uh Battleship Potemkin. I mean, you're really seeing, like in earlier films, you're seeing, you know, uh uh Woody Allen reference his uh beloved sort of comedic actors, comedic movies. Here he's referencing a much more, a much deeper sort of literary uh or I should say imagine literary, like classic cinema as opposed to just great comedy.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. And then you're three years away from interiors, which irritated the hell out of audiences in its moment.
SPEAKER_05Right, but which is basically just like a Bergman film. Yeah. The straight Bergman. Um so we talked about this before, like what were some of our funniest uh things in this movie? I mean, there's just so this is the thing about this movie I think is is different. There's just so many great lines in this movie. I mean, I've said this before, I think Woody Allen is just a uniquely funny person who makes uniquely funny films, he's uniquely great lines, great one-liners. But like the scene when they come across the battlefield and ever all the soldiers are dead, and he goes, Army cooking gets you every time. Uh and then and then and then his friend, one of the soldiers, says, I know him, he's a village idiot. And and Woody Allen says, What did you do? Place? Yes. I mean, it's such a great joke. It's such a great one-liner.
SPEAKER_06That is one of my favorite jokes in the movie, and also the timing there is just impeccable.
SPEAKER_05Timing is impeccable. I mean, we I let's just be clear in this. We don't I don't think we would think we would say that Woody Allen is a great actor. Right? Is there any movie you think where he's he's delivered a really fantastic acting performance?
SPEAKER_06Aaron Powell I think he performs well within his range, right? So he's not the kind of actor that you can just plug into any role. Right. But I think this is uh this has made some of his own problems a little worse because as with Chaplin, people collapse the distance between the character and the person. And in fact, the character is not the person. Uh it is a character that he's playing. And I think he plays that character within that range uh extremely well. And I think that there are movies that show a good bit of that range. We talked about husbands and wives earlier. I think that that's a that's that's some pretty ambitious acting work in there. But most of the time he's playing a variation of his classic character again, in the same way that Chaplin would play a variation of his classic character, or say 60% of Humphrey Bogart's uh characters were uh a version of a certain type of character. And you can say that about a lot of the the, again, the old-time movie stars from the 30s and 40s who had a persona and many of their performances were variations on that particular kind of fictional character. And so in that sense, I I agree with you that he's not a quote-unquote great actor, but I don't want to I think it's too easy to be dismissive and say he's just playing himself, because for one thing he isn't, and for another thing is there's a lot of acting going on there, even if it's within a narrow band.
SPEAKER_05Aaron Ross Powell Well, I was gonna what I was gonna say actually was, and I really appreciate your digression there. That was actually really interesting. But I I know I'm serious, but I was gonna say, like, he's not a great dramatic actor. He's a very good comedic actor. He has great comedic timing. And I think sometimes that we tend to um I just in general, like comedic acting does not get the respect that it deserves. It does. We don't treat it as as seriously as we treat uh dramatic acting. But as a comedic actor, you know, Woody Allen is is he's up there. He's pretty damn good. And in this movie, he's particularly funny. And that line you said, what did you do? Place? Yeah. The delivery is perfect. It's a great, great delivery and a great line. And that's kind of and I mean the other one that get gets me is when he he's, you know, they the the French Napoleon is invaded, and the all his brothers say they want to go to war. And he goes, I don't want to fight in war. He's like, uh I say, Why don't you want to fight for Mother Russia? I I don't want to fight my mother. My mother's right here. And his mother says, And I hope they put you on the front lines. And he goes, My mother, everybody, it's my mother, which by the way is my kid's favorite line from this movie. But it's great, it's great comedic acting. It really is.
SPEAKER_06Yes. And the same timing, rhythm, and again, thinking a little bit about Bob Hope. One of my favorite lines in the movie is when his antagonist says, I heard your heroism was quite inadvertent, and he retorts, You should have such inadvertent heroism. And he's like, Show I I showed him.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Right? I mean, it yeah, exactly. Actually, but but since we're talking about great comedic uh acting, I mean, we have to say a few words about Diane Keaton. I mean, this is really she's fantastic in this movie. And I mean that sincerely. Like we when she passed away last year, we we talked about what movie to do, and we did looking for Mr. Goodbar, but I could make a case that this is I mean, not as good as Andy Hall, but this is a brilliant comedic performance. And the one line I'm just gonna mention that that I think is the best is when when something talking about God and and Woody Allen says, uh, do you think God is made in my image? Do you think God wears glasses? And she goes, Well, not with those frames. I mean, it's just a great delivery, it's a great joke, but she's so good in this movie. She her deliveries are so, so good. Um I mean, yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
SPEAKER_06No, no, I'm just I was just going to agree with your comment that too oftentimes it's easy to overlook the quality of comedic acting because it's comedy.
SPEAKER_05And by the way, she has a lot of scenes with the actor who plays Napoleon, and I think she really does well for herself. She does a really good job. I mean, she she's good. I mean, look, these are Woody Allen written lines, but I think she delivers them well. I mean, she's a really she's an effective comedic actress. And you see as a foil to Woody Allen, I think the two of them just have a chemistry that, you know, we can talk a lot about his the women he's he's had in his movies. I think she is by far the best foil he's ever had in any of his in his movies.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, again, it's you know, it's setting the bar very high. But one place where you can see Keaton's work is toward the very end when she's uh talking with Jessica Harper. And so there she's not in any way bouncing off Woody Allen. She's holding the center of attention on her own. And that's one I that's one of my favorite scenes uh in the movie when she's giving advice to Jessica Harper and telling her this and this and this, and then says at one point, I'm Are you getting this down? You know, as if she should be kind of taking notes on all the advice that she's giving.
SPEAKER_05And Jessica Harper has one of the best lines in the movie. She says, I don't want to get married. I just want to get divorced. And uh but and I mean, you know, she but here's the thing, too. I mean, uh, we could talk, we'll talk about this at some point later, right? So after the Diane Keaton phase, which kind of ends in, I guess, the early 80s. Uh 79. 79 last one? Does she do anything? She's in midsummer night sex comedies, isn't she? Maybe not. I don't think so. She might not be. She might not be. She does come.
SPEAKER_06She shows up in Radio Days.
SPEAKER_05Radio Days, and then she Manhattan Murder Mystery, which is, we both agree, one of one of his better later movies. Um that letter comedies, I think. But um Mia Farrow ends up taking over this role. And while he makes a lot of great movies in this era, I've never been a Mia Farrow fan. And I don't think that she that the chemistry shouldn't have two of them is anywhere near as as good as it is with Diane Keaton.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I don't have strong feelings about it. I think her work in Hannah is outstanding.
SPEAKER_05She's good in the Hannah Sisters.
SPEAKER_06And it my understanding of the stories is that she was always reaching for variation in the characters. Like I think that Broadway Danny Rose came about because she saw a certain waitress in a diner and said, I want to play a role like that. And so he wrote the movie around that. And I I like that ambition in an actor. But I have no she's not one of my go-to actors, and I just have no passions in this area. And, you know, certainly to my mind, I I wouldn't put her up against Diane Keaton. But also in Husbands and Wives, I think the work is excellent.
SPEAKER_05She's good in that movie. I never think she's I mean, I think she's the best she is in Broadway Danny Rose, uh, because she's playing against type. But I'm never like Alice's movie that I think she kind of ruins that movie. Um you know, it's interesting. I some of his best movies actually starred Mia Farah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Oddly enough. Purple Rosa Cairo, uh Zelig, Broadway Danny Rose, Hanna and Her Sisters, uh, Husbands and Wives, Crimes and Misdemeanors. But for whatever it's worth, I don't find her to be that interesting as an actress. Diane Keaton is much more interesting as an actress. I we we'll talk about Annie Hall in Manhattan. She's fantastic in both of those movies.
SPEAKER_07Yes.
SPEAKER_05Certainly. Yeah. I mean, those and and she's fantastic in this movie. Um so again, like as this movie, let's just sort of I guess we can sum it up here. But like I think this movie again has a transition to what where he was going as an artist. And I think look, you can look at this movie in two levels. One, I think it's a brilliant comedy, I think it's very funny, but I think it really does sort of tell us kind of the trajectory of his career. Although I still think that to go from this movie, which shows a lot of slapstick humor, right? The scene where like they knock out the uh the the Spanish um what's his name? I uh Don Francesco. Yes, is like just total slapstick comedy. The scene where they shoot Napoleon, total slapstick comedy. To go from that to Annie Hall, which really doesn't have much of any slapstick comedy, it's a pretty extraordinary leap, wouldn't you say? Yes. Yes. And almost out of nowhere. You think that's that's kind of how I feel too. It's a little bit out of nowhere. Like you see the transition, but it's like the transition is going from single-A baseball to being the MVP of the league. Like that's kind of what it feels like from love and death to to Andy Hall.
SPEAKER_06Aaron Powell, I think that's right, but that's why I think I cling to the idea of looking at Sleeper, Love and Death, and Andy Hall as these kind of trapeze swings, in which one somehow you know leads to this dive into the next one and then dive into the next one. But yeah, and you know, Andy Halls don't grow on trees. So it's, you know, there's very few filmmakers in which you would say, oh yeah, I really saw Andy Hall coming.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_05I mean, that's true. I mean, it's I mean, but that's a I think it's also unusual for a filmmaker to I feel like maybe this isn't unfair, but I think a lot of times like filmmakers usually like when they make a great movie, it's often one of their first movies. That like they like not every filmmaker has like tons of great movies in them, and sometimes their early ones are some or maybe the second or third movie is their best one. I mean, this is really far along this process. And then of course, right after this, he does um he does interior's neck, then it has Manhattan, which I think you probably rank even higher than Annie Hall, don't you?
SPEAKER_06I th again you have the question is which one do you want to watch tomorrow? I think Annie Hall is the is the more enjoyable watch. But I think that if I'm uh saving one for a time capsule, I'm probably saving Manhattan. Interesting.
SPEAKER_05I th that's I can't wait to talk about those movies. Uh uh but I think I I would do Annie Hall for both of those, actually. I still put them as uh as the high highest ranked of them. Sure. Um so okay, so I think we've we've kind of hit all of these films. I mean what I think we want to sum up here, we talk about talk about the early Woody. Is there anything else you want to sort of reference here?
SPEAKER_06I just think what we've done is talk about the development of a major filmmaking talent and and that there's not a lot in the films that we saw, as you just said, that would prepare us for the person who made fifteen movies from nineteen seventy-seven to nineteen ninety-two as one of the most, you know, notable runs in film history.
SPEAKER_05I agree. I agree. And then and you said tonight too, you're you're ending with husbands and wives.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Uh he made a lot of good movies after that, right? I mean, he made Match Point, he made Mighty Aphrodite, he made Vicky Cristina Barcelona, uh, with Blue Jasmine. Yeah. It it's extraordinary the level of of of his his artistic output. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Although I might have been going all the way to Manhattan murder mystery, but whatever it is, it's like that's 77 to 91, 92, whatever that period is, it's astonishing. And yes, there's lots of really good movies. In the decades that would follow. But that period, that that 15 year period is is just astonishing in terms of kind of American film history.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, I I it's an interesting thing, and I mean I know we said we're not gonna talk about you know his the sort of scandals around him, but I do wonder, I mean, he's 90 something years old. And I do wonder like how he will be remembered uh when he passes, because I think unfortunately that these scandals have come to define his public persona in a way that I don't think I've ever seen with an artist quite the way I mean they define him, I think, more than like Polansky's uh again, things he pleaded guilty to. Uh in in a and and I think it's I'm not sure exactly why that is. It was always out there about Woody Allen, and then sort of when Me Too happened, it there was a real backlash to him. I mean, I commuted the fact that he married his his girlfriend's 19-year-old adopted daughter, that might have something to do with it as well. I'm not gonna defend that. But it is interesting.
SPEAKER_06I I have a copy of the guy's handbook, and that's that's under the do not do list. Yeah. Don't take up with your girlfriend's uh young daughter.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's it's not real. I mean, look, he was not his daughter. He did not raise her. No. Nonetheless, it's not exactly a laudable thing to do.
SPEAKER_07No.
SPEAKER_05And but it is striking how and look, all these artists we talk about have checkered past and have done things that are disagreeable and and worse than disagreeable, that are criminal. And yet he has, in a sense, I think, been more canceled than other people have. And I do wonder, like, will will people, when he passes, will it he be remembered as, in some ways, maybe the most important American filmmaker ever? I mean, you could really make that argument with Woody Allen.
SPEAKER_06Trevor Burrus, Jr. I think we won't be around to see it, but you know, decades will pass and then he'll be remembered for the for the work. And when he's remembered for the work, then that I think that work will stand up very well. But this this is true for a lot of filmmakers, you know, throughout history. I mean, if you we talked about Charlie Chaplin a lot. A lot of people who were swift to cancel Woody Allen, yeah, maybe don't look too hard into the whole Charlie Chaplin thing. And then once you start doing that, you know, the the it the lists forms at the door, and it's a very, very, very long list of great artists who've done things that you would not approve of.
SPEAKER_05Right, right. I think that's right. I mean, I just think it's interesting with with with Alan that the the there's a discrepancy between the accusations against him and the backlash. It does feel disproportionate, even if you believe all these terrible things about him, and I don't know where the truth lies, neither one of us do. Um but that's kind of what it is. And and and I think for me at least, he will always be, and I think you agree with this, a lowest star. He will always be uh an act a director, an actor who and a comedian and a writer who we just revere.
SPEAKER_06He's a major American filmmaker who made a large number of great movies. And you know and and who is a complete stranger to me. Complete. This is the pro I think I think I don't want to really get into this, but I think that so many people who watched his movies thought somehow they actually knew him personally, you know, that they had a close personal relationship with him, and that that illusion can be so powerful in film, especially when you're thinking about a filmmaker who's on screen who has a persona, that for many people took it personally in a way that you don't take it personally if you and I'd urge you not to read more about Chuck Barry, read more about Miles Davis, read more about so many people, you know. I bet you have a lot of those albums, you know, on your or whatever, uh in your collection. And yet, oh my goodness, uh, you know, but but I don't feel like, oh, Chuck Barry, we were so close. I can't believe that.
SPEAKER_05You know, do you think that's that's because like in these movies he's such a comic figure and he's like always self-deprecating that you think of him, maybe you have a more positive relationship with him. And then when you find out about these stories about his his sex life and who he's married to, that you just it like it it explodes in a way that's different than it would be for uh artists who are like if he's known as a ladies' man, he played a ladies' man, would we take this stuff as seriously as we do because he's basically a comedic actor?
SPEAKER_06Aaron Powell I don't know. I don't think it's the comedic actor part. I think it's that a l he was very clever and had a personality and navigated a culture and a society that many people thought they were members of. And so they could say to themselves, oh, he's like me, but in different circumstances, right? He kind of speaks to me, acts the way I would act. And so and and and that really to then have him accused, or in the case of, you know, the the the Sun Yi thing, you know, do things that you might disapprove of, it it feels like a personal betrayal, I think, for people. And I don't I I think it's because that the illusion that you have an actual personal relationship with these people is can be so overwhelmingly powerful that when it's there, you can have the sense of betrayal that would not exist again, with the list. Uh we've just the tip of the iceberg of the list of of of people we view as our kind of heroic artists, uh, who you know we would be horrified to kind of go out to dinner with. I know.
SPEAKER_05I have lots of things I'll say about this. I think the one thing, other thing too, is I think he what's really striking about Woody Allen, he does not give a shit. He does not really seem to care that people hate him. Right? I mean, he's made so many movies after the whole Sun Yi thing happened, after all the allegations, in which he basically has sort of given, for lack of better term, a fuck you to to his critics. Deconstructing Harry is a good example of that. But there are other movies as well where he basically is, you know, uh movies where he's he's getting like uh husbands and wives. He has a uh little dalliance with his one of his his college students with Juliet Lewis, who's many years younger than him. And a lot of his movies, like Manhattan, my God, he's dating a 17-year-old high school student, right? I mean, you know, the he and of course that's before the allegations, but but he's never really really apologized or actually sought penance. There's never there's no PR element on on on him on his behalf or you know, to try to like correct the record.
SPEAKER_06But he doesn't care. Again, I I'm reluctant to get too much into that. For me, I really I've been trained, I've been raised and trained by Bob Dylan. And the and our relationship is, as he has established, I don't know you, you don't know me. I perform songs, I release records. If you want to listen to me perform, you're welcome to do so. If you want to buy my records, you're welcome to do so. And that is the extent of our relationship.
SPEAKER_05But I think the overlap between Bob Dylan and Woody Allen, who both of us love, is is quite profound. There's a lot of overlap there. I think for for American Jews of our of our generation, Woody Allen and Bob Dylan are the Lothstars.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_06And on that note, my only point is, and we do not know them.
SPEAKER_05And we do not know them, and we never will. Yeah. Yeah. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening. This was a long one, uh, and we appreciate you uh, you know, sitting through and listening to everything we had to say about these movies. And uh again, if you're enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, please, you know, buy us a cup of coffee, tell your friends, uh, and uh, you know, we'll see you next week. Not sure what we're gonna do next week, maybe something a little more serious after all the comedy for this week, but uh we'll be back with good movies and uh look forward to seeing you then. Alrighty, bye-bye.