The Killing of a Chinese Bookie

This week on That '70s Movie Podcast, Jonathan and Michael are jumping in the phone booth for the 1976 crime drama, "The Killing of a Chinese Bookie."

We loved the moral ambiguity at the heart of the movie, the focus on character over plot, the night-for-night shooting, and above all the extraordinary performance by Ben Gazzara as LA club owner -- and degenerate gambler -- Cosmo Vitelli.

This movie is an underappreciated gem of '70s filmmaking -- and one of John Cassavetes' best-directed films -- with one scene in particular that is arguably the pinnacle of New Hollywood filmmaking.

So grab a dozen burgers (no wrappers, please), put on your corsage, draw on some face paint, and remember, we can't give you anything but love for this week's episode of "That '70s Movie Podcast."

Please take a moment to give the podcast a thumbs up, leave a note, and buy us a cup of coffee!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Paris number. Paris number. For Christ's sake, you better place them here. You don't know what the Paris number is? Are there signs on the wall? P A R. Paris number. Are there letters on the wall that say P A R? There's another card that says love. Well, what's he saying? Is it I can't give you anything but love, baby? I can't give you anything but love, baby.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Welcome everybody to the latest episode of That Seventies Movie Podcast. I'm your host, Michael A. Cohen, joined by my co-host, Jonathan Kirschner. Jonathan, how are you doing today? Status quo, which means I'm hanging in there. Yeah. A lot going on in the world these days, but we're not going to talk about that. We got a very angry note from a listener a few weeks ago about talking too much about Trump and politics, so we are going to eschew that topic. However, which we have not talked a lot about. I was very surprised by that comment because we never talk about politics. It was quite vehement. It was very vehement. It was it had it had a lot of vehemence. And uh, I think maybe once we talked about something related to the Iran War, but No, I think it was Chinatown.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

It was natural that corruption came up and we had a policy of the world. Well, maybe that's what we played Iran as a guest. I mean, come on. You got to expect something.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

I mean, we really do go out of our way not to talk about politics. So uh, you know, that is one of the founding credos of this podcast. Uh so uh before we get into talking about this movie today, uh, I wanted to just mention some of the comments we've received recently from listeners. I do really enjoy, we get these comments. We've gotten some really great uh recommendations, people talking about the episodes, what they liked, about what they didn't like. But we had this uh a listener, I doesn't have a name, just I know they're in Kirkland, Washington, and they uh they have a lot of passion behind this particular listener. Uh, this person wrote, You don't want to do Star Wars, you don't want to do Apocalypse Now, you don't want to do horror. I thought this show was called That 70s Movie Podcast, not movies that Michael likes. Ouch! But I wanted to say for the record, I do want to do Star Wars. It is Jonathan and everybody else who listens who doesn't want me to do Star Wars. And we will do Apocalypse now at some point, I promise. Just um, you know, we have to get to build up to it, I think. Uh as for horror, guilty as charged, we don't like horror movies. By the way, also, this person wrote about duel. This happened just today. They said about Jonathan, this is a little harsh. Can you not just enjoy a movie without wearing your professor hat? No one's gonna take you less seriously just because you had fun with a good old-fashioned yard. Yarn, excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Love that comment, but but my response is what Rip Torn uh uh on the Larry Sanders show once said to the suits. I said, Look, you hire Larry Sanders, you get Larry Sanders.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Exactly. By the way, uh we we love the Larry Sanders show. Uh that's a great, great show. I that's a top 10 all-time TV show in my opinion. Rip Torn is so good on it. It's such a great show. And by the way, that is a show that that um not many shows really stick the landing as far as the finale. That show stuck the landing. The finale of the uh Larry Sanders show is, I would argue, the best episode that they ever did, which is really saying something.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

And Rip Torn, in late career, most people are more familiar with him for lighter and more comedic fare that he did, often to pay the bills. But back in the day, he was considered one of the most intense and gifted actors of his generation. And he's just you ever see Rip Torn in almost any movie, uh really it's worth seeking out. He's he's he's an extraordinary actor and really quite on the edge, the kind of actor who might attack his director with a hammer if if if the mood struck him. Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Uh and we did briefly talk about Payday, which at some point I think we're gonna have to talk about, which is one of the darkest uh 70s movies you will ever see with a phenomenal performance by Rich Torren. Probably his best work. I think so. I think so. Um we also got a comment from Dave in London. Hey, I just discovered your podcast and really enjoying it. It's making me dig out my old DVDs and rewatch stuff I haven't seen in ages. Yay for physical media. I don't know if you do request, but I'd love to hear you talk about my favorite film, Picnic at Hanging Rock. I think it's perfect. I actually like that movie a lot. It's Australian. It's uh it's dark, 70s, right? It's a little surreal at times, but uh I think it's pretty good. I think we should talk about that. We'll put that one on the list. We uh we also got another another uh email from uh somebody in London who said that we should do a movie called TR Baskin. That was a great movie. Doing the podcast. Go ahead. I dare ya. But I think uh you're not as big on that movie, are you, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_01 5:12

You know it's not bad. I'm not sure it'll hold up for for a full podcast. It has a fantastic cast, uh, and it's it's it's it's a fun movie, but I uh it does have a cult following as as our listener is a member of that cult. Uh I'd have to revisit it though. It's it's been a while. I saw my my notes were somewhat soft on it, but not negative.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Okay, fair enough. Uh we also heard from Paul Cunningham, who is a big fan of the show. We love Paul. He bought us a cup of coffee a while back. He apparently was not on board with sexualized and videotapes, it couldn't let such a full fit endorsement of a film. I've never liked go without a second viewing. And sorry, but there won't be a third. Still don't get it, but good show as always.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Yeah, we tried. No, but that's that's that's the way it should be. I mean, he didn't like it. He should never, uh as he knows, you can never let anyone tell you what to like.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

No, I know. And Paul has been a big uh supporter of the podcast, so we appreciate him. Uh, also want to mention uh James O, another frequent commenter who uh really enjoyed the Mikey Nicky episode. And he said uh after listening to this breakdown of it, I will see it again soon with fresh eyes and probably love it now. I love to hear that. If you go back and watch a movie because you listen to us, that is awesome. Uh so I really appreciate that, James. And also we heard from uh Angel Sanchez uh on the Virginia Wolf episode, said a great podcast. It discusses the movie for fans uh like myself. It's like hearing the commentary track on a movie. What I often do is watch the movie first and go hear the podcast next. We really appreciate that comment, uh Angel. I'm glad that you are enjoying the show. And to all of you who are enjoying the show, we appreciate you listening. We appreciate your comments. Please, if you're having a good time here, you're liking it, leave a comment. Uh, you know, give us a thumbs up. We've gotten a bunch of those recently. Subscribe so you know where the next episode comes out. And uh, you know, just keep listening and keep telling your friends. So I've gotten through all of that. Uh, Jonathan, quick question for you, as I always ask you, see anything good recently?

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yes, actually, although it's been a bit of a slow stretch for me in movie watching as I've been moving about a little more than I like to, but I caught up with a movie called Confessions of a Police Captain, an Italian policer, kind of a radical film, not radical in structure, it's rather classically shot, radical in its politics from 1971, featuring none other than Martin Balsam as the titular captain. And I hadn't seen it before, it was new to me. And it's not a great movie, but I enjoyed it thoroughly, and I thought it was exceptionally well done. And a quick hat tip: there's a relatively new physical media company called Radiance Films that is just putting out lots and lots of obscurities, and I always keep track of what's new and coming from Radiance. They're doing a great job uh bringing out stuff that would otherwise not get nice polished special editions, and this is a very nice example of that. So a hat tip to Radiance Films. Awesome. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Well, uh, I've seen a bunch of stuff that I want to just quickly mention to our listening audience. Um, this past week or two has been the Tribeca Film Festival here in New York, and I saw two movies there. Uh one I liked and one I did not like. Uh the first one that I did not like was a new documentary about Mario Cuomo, which I was sort of, you know, I think an interesting character. I was like excited to hear see what the what they had to say, and it just really wasn't that interesting. Um was kind of a hagiography, um, didn't tell me much I didn't already know, and I felt kind of it sort of was like a paint by number documentary, so just didn't really didn't really care for it.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Aaron Powell I'm sorry to hear that because that's I'm I'm from there. Uh we you know we knew Exactly we knew Mario when he was in ADA, and so I I would have lapped up a really good documentary about it.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Aaron Powell I mean, I think if you know him, it it might be an enjoyable thing to watch. I just found it to be sort of underwhelming as far as it wasn't a very critical. It was just very, very sort of like, you know, the the family was very involved in the making of it, from what I could tell. And so I think that sort of made nod toward them. It didn't also this is the weirdest thing about this film, it didn't actually talk about his record as governor of New York, which I thought was very strange. And it focused instead on on really the speech he gave at the 84 Democratic National Convention, his impact on national politics. Although really, if you think about it, his impact in national politics was actually pretty marginal. Uh he was sort of a a guy who was preaching liberalism at the time and people weren't interested in liberalism, and then he didn't run for president when he could have maybe perhaps had an impact. So I thought it just didn't, I wasn't sold on it. I'll put it that way. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

It's tricky when the family is involved. Although there's a wonderful documentary called How to Come Alive with Norman Mailer that the family was very much involved in, and that documentary pulled no punches, nor should I add knives.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

The other movie I saw in a documentary was called Bob and Dave Climb Machu Picchu. This was a documentary about Bob Odenkirk and David Cross, both comedians, uh, who decided to climb up to Machu Picchu and they recorded for for posterity. I actually kind of enjoyed this movie. They both were at the at the event, so they got talked a little bit about it, which was kind of fun. Um I wouldn't say it was like the best movie I ever saw, but it was enjoyable. And they're both interesting guys. So yeah, not bad. Worth checking out. Maybe more of a Netflix kind of a thing on streaming than go to the theater, but I'd recommend, you know, I'd certainly give it a recommendation.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

And to bring our pregame talk full circle, Bob Odenkirk uh had a nice role on the Larry Sanders show as super. Oh my god. Super agent Stevie Grant.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Superagent Stevie Grant, who is fantastic on that show. God, you know, Odenkirk is uh it's funny because actually he was talking about this where he said he had this career as a writer and then he did some acting, and then his career is kind of like ended, and he wasn't doing anything really as an actor, and then all of a sudden, like the Better Call Saul Breaking Bad thing sort of fell into his lap and it turned into like his second career. And one of the funny sort of sub themes of this movie is that everywhere he goes, people recognize him from you know from Breaking Bad and from Better Call Saul. Uh I mean he's that's why he's a star, I think, today. He wasn't a star before that, really. He was he was a guy who was like on, you know, had a bit part of the Larry Sanders show. So uh the thing, last thing I'll just say what I also have been seeing. So we are tomorrow, because it's very exciting, we are gonna be guests on a podcast, a UK podcast, talking about uh movies and psychology. And this host reached out to us, asked us to come on, asked to pick a movie, and we chose the Woody Allen 1987 drama Another Woman. This is a fantastic movie. This is one of his best movies. And we're gonna talk a little bit about it, uh, I think for a quick little episode before we put this out online whenever the podcast goes live. However, as often happens to me when I see a Woody Allen movie, I get this yen to watch all of the Woody Allen movies. And he's made 50 movies. Yeah, he was making another one this year in Madrid. I am unaware of that. Yeah, it's pretty exciting, actually. I didn't know he was still working, but he has a new movie he's doing, so that's kind of exciting. And uh, I went back and I watched a bunch of Woody Allen movies. Some that I'd seen before, some I had not seen. And uh let's go over the list really quick. I watched Husbands and Wives, Vicky Christina Barcelona, uh, Deconstructing Harry, Sweet and Lowdown, and anything else. And I gotta say, man, all of these movies were really good. Anything else was the weakest one of all of them by far. And I didn't really care for Sweet and Lowdown all that much, although it was a nice movie. But man, Husbands and Wives is a phenomenal movie. We should talk about that at some point, don't you think?

SPEAKER_01 12:55

It's very 70s, not 70s.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

It's very 70s. It's a very dark, bleak movie about relationships and marriage. Yes. Uh one thing that I was struck by is watching some of these films. I don't I think I, you know, saw them maybe I was younger, didn't realize how thematically rich some of these movies are. Um All right. Anything else on that or should we move on?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

I think we should move on because we're gonna obviously be taking several stops uh at the Woody Allen stations, and so let's let's hold the audience in suspense until then.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

All right, sounds good. Okay, so today what are we talking about? The 1976 crime drama, The Killing of a Chinese Bookie, directed by John Cassavetes, also written by John Cassavetes, cinematography by Mitchell Bright and Al Rubin, edited by Tom Cornwell, music by Bo Harwood. Who's in it? Well, Ben Gazara is the lead. Uh, also stars Timothy Carey, Seymour Cassell, Morgan Woodward, Aziz, Jihari, Mead, and Mead Roberts. What's it about? The story of Cosmo Vitelli, a LA club owner who loses $23,000 in a mob-controlled poker game, and to pay off his debt is asked to kill a Chinese bookie, and chaos ensues. I always say chaos ensues, but actually, that's accurate. And particularly in this movie, wouldn't you say? Much chaos. Much chaos. Okay, very good. So uh this is uh did not was not nominated for any Academy Awards. It's not even on the IndieWire top 100 films 1970s, I find shocking. Uh, there's two versions of this movie: 1976 version, which is the long version, that was universally panned by critics at the time and did very poorly. And then the 1978 version, which came out later, obviously. It's about, I think, 20 or 30 minutes shorter than the original version. We are gonna be discussing it today, although we did I watch both of them, and I actually kind of think the long one's a little bit better, but uh, for those of you out there, I'd probably recommend watching uh the shorter one first. Um so we've gotten to the point in the podcast, Jonathan. That point everyone looks forward to, and I mean, this is where this is where the rubber hits the road, if you will. Jonathan, the killing of a Chinese bookie. Is this a good movie?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Is this a bad movie? Or is this a great movie? I'm gonna shock everybody by staying with the program. This is a great movie. Yeah, this is a great movie. Well, I've given this a lot of thought, and I've realized, at least for me, that it turns out I'm a pretty cheap date. Uh really, all I need is character over plot, lots of moral ambiguity, glorious night-for-night shooting, and spectacular performances. You give me those four things, I'm there.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

And this movie delivers those four things. Those this movie delivers those four things in in spades. I have no question about it. This movie is you know, I first saw this a couple years ago, and I was sort of like eh on it, and then I watched it again, and I was sort of blown away by how good it is. And the two things about it that I think really stand out to me. I think there's a difference between the the longer version and the short version. The longer version, I actually like the opening of the longer version because it really it's it spends a lot of time in this nightclub where the Cosmo Vitelli played with Ben Bizarro that he owns. It really gets into sort of explaining uh what is it about this place that is so important to him. You see a lot of interaction with the the the women who dance in this club. And by the way, I say nightclub, really this is a strip club. Let's be clear about that point. Strip club plus. Strip club plus, right, with some uh with some you know bits and stuff. It's like a burlesque house, for lack of a term.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

There you go. That's better.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

And I and I really I really appreciate that opening, but then you watch some of the burlesque uh acts, and they are, I mean, let's be honest, kind of dreadful and not very entertaining. And I think it kind of drags me down a little bit, and that's me what I didn't like it as much. In the in the more uh the 78 version that was recut, that opening segment is is streamlined pretty dramatically, and you have a lot less of these nightclub bits, and I think it flows a little bit better. But I think having watched the the the shorter one and loving it, I went back and watched the longer one. I'm like, oh, this is pretty good too. And there's actually things in that that I really miss not being in the shorter version. There was a way, it's funny. I couldn't, if I had to say which one do you prefer, I think I'd probably prefer the short the longer one, I think, but not by a lot. There's elements in both that I like. Um, but the the flow of this movie, the performances in this movie, the bleakness of this movie, uh all of it is just, I don't know, it's fantastic. And let's just say a word about Ben Gazara here, because I think Ben Gazara, who's not an actor that I have a lot of uh experience with, I think is just fantastic in this movie. Uh it's just an incredibly moving and emotional performance.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yeah. Gazara is a great actor. He had a long career, a distinguished career. Many of you may remember him from Anatomy of a Murder as the Murderer, and he was really wonderful in that. And he also, we talked about Riptorne earlier, brings a certain intensity to his roles that's just there under the surface that is palpable. And he was also fully on board with the Cassavetti's project of just trying to dig deeper and deeper and deeper into the characters in a very kind of aggressive way, in a way that sometimes you say, maybe we don't want to dig that deep. I mean, we talked a bit about the Cassavetti's film Husbands with uh Gazara and Peter Falk. They they maybe dig there a little more than I need to be dug. Um, but but uh, you know, uh Cazara is spectacular in this film.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

So I gotta just recount one thing about Ben Gazaro. Whenever I hear that name, I'm always reminded of this incredibly funny joke that Gilbert Godfrey told about him. Uh I remember seeing it years ago on Letterman. This is like in the 80s, and I used to, I was obsessed with Letterman's, you know, 1230 show. And he had this joke where this alien spacecraft lands right near him. These aliens start coming out of the spacecraft and they walk up to him, and he's just like, you know, in shock at what's what's happening. And the the aliens gather around him, and the one in the lead says to him, Ben Gazar is a good actor. Why can't he get a series? Yeah. It's a brilliant joke. Uh and I always thought about that, like Ben Gazar, like that's kind of like, you know, he he was like a big star, but he never had like a TV show where a lot of people do, like in the 70s and 80s, right? I mean, I don't know. Is he he he feels like not it's I almost thought it was a little surprising that he was a lead in this movie because he feels more like a supporting actor than a lead actor.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

I think traditionally he was more of a supporting actor than a lead actor, but he can certainly carry a film. After Chinese Bookie, he re-teamed with Cassavetes to to participate in opening night with Jenna Rollins, which is also one of my favorite Cassavetes films. And in 79, he took the lead in Peter Bogdanovich's St. Jack, which uh has some similarities to Chinese Bookie in regard to the character, and he he carries that film uh very well, I think. So I I do find him to be a rather remarkable actor in general, and I'm always happy to be in his company, but I want to double back, as often you've covered too much ground all at once. I always do it, don't I? I always do it. I know. Just a quick comment about the long and the short versions. Uh you are in good company. All the cool kids think that the longer version is the better version. Uh Philip Lopate, uh, Jonathan Rosenbaum, they are all champions of the long version. I prefer the shorter version. And I think it's partially because Philip Lopate, in a wonderful essay for Criterion about this movie called The Raw and the Cooked, I guess referring to the two versions of this movie, says that the short version is like a tight French policer. And, you know, I'm a sucker for a tight French policer, and that's probably why. I love the short version so much. And the short version is tight, and the long version is not I would not describe as tight.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

No, it's it's not tight, it's not, but it does get into certain elements of the club that are, I think, in important. And so that's why I kind of have a slight preference for it. But I do think that, as I said before, the nightclub scenes drag on. Now, this nightclub, it's called Crazy Horse. Crazy Horse West, yeah. Crazy Horse West, thank you. Which is not the Crazy Horse famously in Las Vegas, which is a strip club. And this is a burlesque club, and you know, as I said before, the acts themselves, they're basically, you have this character played by Mead Roberts, who actually did collaborate with Tennessee Williams on a couple of his plays. He plays this character called Mr. Sophistication with this sort of like uh awful face paint, and he he's supposed to be Parisian and he has these little skits and things he does with the girls. And the girls really are they're stripping, they're naked. Um, and whenever the girls sort of take off their dresses or pull their breasts out as they do, the crowd hoots and hollers. And that's really what people are there for. But Gizara is really focused on the acts themselves. He thinks of himself as an artist, but he's putting on real entertainment here when in reality most people are there just to see naked girls. And let's say for the record, the women in this movie are just gorgeous. One of them, Aziz um, Azizi Jihari, uh, a black woman, was playmate of the month in June of '75. I think, I think she's one of the first black playmates ever. I mean, she's quite beautiful. Everyone in the movie is quite beautiful. And but there's a metaphor here, right? Uh, there's a metaphor here about how John Cassavetes thought about uh his role as uh in Hollywood. Can you just sort of talk about that briefly?

SPEAKER_01 22:38

I will I will, but I gotta do two other things first, thanks to your last set of comments. Sorry. No problem. I I I just kind of, you know, my as my memory fades, it's hard for me to juggle so many. At our age, we have when we have a thought in our head, we have to say it. It's a very all at once, but uh uh the movie goes out of its way. You know, when Cosmo uh's character introduces the acts, he mentions that he writes, directs, and choreographs them I mean he's forgotten about this. He takes himself very seriously as an artist, even though most others wouldn't. And I want to say, when you say strip club or burlesque, most people today who have familiarity with those institutions uh probably have something slightly different than mine. This is very 70s or even 50s, you know, or maybe 60s kind of. Yeah, yeah. It's not it's not quite as tawdry uh as as a contemporary club uh would be. And what's interesting to me also is that Cassavetti's films, more generally, are kind of chaste. Uh this film has a bit of nudity and it has a bit of violence, and most Cassavetti's films have neither of those. Uh he had kind of shied away from each of them in his movies in favor of what he preferred, which was what he called emotional violence, which he said is much more powerful than physical violence. So it is noticeable. Uh I I suspect this is the only Casavetti's film that I can think of that has even a hint of nudity in it, even though his career stretched in periods in which there was great permissiveness uh on screen. And so that that in and of itself is interesting. But to answer the question you actually pose toward me, it is not. Better late than never.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Better late than never, Jonathan, as I always say.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

I am about the first person to make this observation, but I buy it wholeheartedly, and I think it's Gazara's interpretation. I think it's also Al Rubin's interpretation. Al Rubin was a producer on this film. Al Rubin was a cinematographer on this film. Al Rubin uh is an affiliate of Castavetti. It's also played the Lone Shark in the early scenes. That's also Al Rubin. Oh, nice. Okay. Both Rubin and Gazara say that Cosmo is John and the gangsters are the Hollywood studios. And it has a lot to do with trying to get your art made that matters to you, even though you have to deal with the suits whose demands are just outrageous and unbearable. But wait, there's more. Because when you introduced the movie correctly, there's two steps here that the movie starts with Cosmo paying off Al Grubin, the loan shark. He's had he's been in debt to this loan shark for quite some time, and he gives him his final payment. And then what does he immediately do? He runs out to a gambling den run by mobsters and loses $23,000. So there's also a self-destructive streak, a recklessness to the Cosmo character that also must have been part of Cassavetti's self-identification there. Because you just don't do that. You don't get, you don't get even and then throw yourself back into massive debt.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

It's sort of fascinating. So two things I want to comment on. One is that I agree with the interpretation about that the the mob, the mob bosses or the mob hoods were was Hollywood and Cassavetti's and and the Cosmo was Cassavetti's. It is interesting, however, that Cosmo is is so uh um uh wedded to this these burlesque shows that are so not good. Right? I mean I get I get that this like he sees this as art, but they're really not great shows, and they're really not great. They're not good at all. So that is sort of interesting, maybe a little self-deprecatory toward himself. I don't know. But one thing that I think to your point, like this movie starts off with him going to this uh outdoor LA restaurant. I think it's a very famous place called the Melting Pot. It reminded me of the scene from uh from Andy Hall where Cody Allen goes to the outdoor place and he orders a plate of mashed yeast. Um he pays off this bookie, he really tells off the bookie, you know, calls him a uh name, says he don't want to ever see him again. And as you said, the what's the first thing he does after he pays off, which apparently been like several years he'd been paying off this debt? He goes out and goes gambling with uh three of his, as one of the Bob Hood calls him, cupcakes, uh girls from the strip club. I can't tell by the way who's actually his girlfriend in the movie, because he I mean maybe they all are, right? I'm not really sure. Um, they go with him, and it's interesting. A lot of this movie that I think is sort of fascinating is like it's stuff we don't see that is is sort of most important in the movie. We don't see him playing poker. If I could guarantee the movie was made today, there would have been a long, long scene of him losing hand after hand after hand. Instead, we see him playing, he asks for some credit, and the next thing we know, he owes $23,000.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

You know, jump, jump, jump scare or uh uh whatever it is. Like all of a sudden, he's in debt to these mobsters.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

But also to just push hard on that metaphor of the mobsters as the studios. And when the mobsters uh confront him with his debt initially, they're putting on the reading glasses, they're taking out the paperwork, you know. Yes, you you oh you have to sign here, here, and here, it's in triplicate. It's it's very, you know, gangsters as businessmen type of thing. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

They ask for certain forms that they have to fill out, right? It's like a whole thing. These are not like, you know, this is not like Tony Soprano basically squeezing, you know, uh um uh the the the shop owner in in in the sopranos. Like this is something very, very uh uh clinical almost. Yeah. Um corporate, yeah. So, okay, so he incurs this debt and he has to figure out how to pay it off. And we sort of, this is where the sort of chaos actually this is even where the chaos ensues. He's trying to figure out to pay it off. He has to, I mean, he paid off the last debt, he thinks he can pay off this debt. But at some point, the mob guys ask him to basically kill this Chinese bookie. And there's a really amazing scene where they're sitting in a coffee shop. It looked like a coffee shop again. It felt like very LA. It almost reminded me of some scene from that um that that 90s movie, The Swingers. Like just had that kind of like look and feel of like a like an LA diner. And they're sitting around talking about the fact that they have to um he that he to pay off his debt, he's gonna have to kill this bookie. And Gazara, as Cosmos, says no. He refuses to do it and talks about his past experience in V in Korea, where he had shot people and killed people before. Um, I know you love the scene, so what is it about the scene that kind of like really is so I don't know, it's to me it's a little bit of what's not even said. It's kind of like what hinted at in the conversation that is so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

So what I find appealing about that scene, and you know, you have a I think first they're in the car and then they're in the restaurant, is just the the characters, the gangsters themselves. Every one of them is wonderful. And you have Timothy Carey, who's a a wonderful player that's been in a million movies. He's not usually in Cassavetti's films, but he's he's terrific here.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Most famously, he played one of the um soldiers in Palace of Glory. I think that's what I think. And also he's in the he's in the killing as well, which I think.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Absolutely. Had a rich, long, and fascinating career. But also, just enormous shout out to Seymour Cassell, uh, who is my favorite gangster in this movie, and he is a long-term Cassavetti's affiliate. He had a long career in which he performed in over 200 roles. He was in late career a favorite of Wes Anderson. That's right. I believe this is his finest performance. And again, I know I'm a broken record on this, but he's he's so subtle. I mean, he's a gangster, but he is very, very cool. And and and it's not, he's never overacting. All of the all of what he does is is underplayed, and it's it's even more chilling because of it.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Yeah, let me say about Cassado in the in the in the longer cut, he comes to the club in this early scene, and it almost feels like that he tries to rope, like he knows about Cosmo paying off his debt, and tries to rope him in to coming to this casino where he will lose more money. I that I I was surprised it was cut out because it does feel like an important element to this movie where it does feel like they are tr they they see him as a as a fish or as as somebody who they can basically cut get money off of and they try to encourage him to come to the casino.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah, that's that's in a long version, and it is a it is you know a piece of exposition, right? How did Cosmo find out about this place? You know, how did he end up there? And so you do have you do have uh Casal showing up at the Crazy Horse West, and and yeah, he's really hooking a fish there. And it is suggested, I think, that he knew Al Rubin, uh his loan shark, and that's probably how that connection was.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Yeah, that's my sense of it as well. By the way, it's also just the whole scene about when Gazara uh or Cosmo goes to this casino, like after paying off his debt. I mean, it's so pathetic, this scene. He basically hires a limo, gets the champagne, he gets corsages for each of his three girlfriends. Like he's like a little kid going to prom. I mean, it's it's like uh it's a very it's a really interesting insight into his personality and not in a really positive way. This guy Kim Scross, like he's kind of a loser, although he has these beautiful women that he hangs out with, although he never seems to actually have sex with any of these women, just for what it's worth.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Aaron Powell I think he has a an intimate relationship with Margot, uh who you mentioned earlier.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Aaron Ross Powell That's the the black uh woman. Yes. Yes, I think that's right. I think that's right.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

So I think she's I think she's his his actual girlfriend, and I think that she's an important part of his life. And the other two, I think, are just kind of hangers-on there.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Aaron Powell But it's sort of sad that he feels this need to bring these three women with him to the casino uh uh as if almost to sort of as a way of saying, look at me, I've got three girlfriends, and they just kind of sit around and they're bored off their asses basically watching him lose all this money.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Aaron Powell But after he loses, he has the long night, it's terrible, and he drops them off sequentially. He drops Margot off last, and I think he she invites him in and he says, you know, which would have been a normal thing for her to do in that context that he says no. But I think the sequence of the drop-offs and the fact that, of course, as we know later with the movie, that's where he goes to when he's in the most distress. And uh, that's a complex relationship. But we were with the gangsters and we got sidetracked. I wanted to give one more shout out, Morgan Woodward uh as the boss, known to many of us uh for appearing in several episodes of the original Star Trek. He is also quite excellent. Uh so again, the gangsters here, just top-notch gangsters.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Agreed, agreed. And and it's funny because uh Cosmo kind of to me comes across like sort of pathetic and sad. It just that, again, like I said, having these girlfriends around them, like going to play poker, losing all this money. And you know, even after like the aftermath, and I've been there, by the way. I I gamble. The trip after you've lost money at the casino is an awful trip. And you're like, how am I gonna pay this back? What am I gonna do? I mean, I've never lost $20,000. Don't get me wrong. That's not that's never happens. Uh but there's something so like pathetic and sad about this experience that he has. And it's interesting because the first thing he does then is he goes to the to play the restaurant where he usually has um uh breakfast where he met the uh loan shark. And there's a waitress there and she offers to dance for him, and he's like, okay, fine. I've had I haven't slept all night. I was playing Pokeballs with money. Yeah, let's bring it to the club and we'll watch you dance, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Well, but that was a bit, you know, I think she wanted to audition for him. So about the random dance. Right. There's a very cute camera move here that I just want to call attention to when she comes up to him at the table and he's looking at her, and then the camera just kind of drops down and lingers on her breasts. It's it's i it's so realistic. You can, you know, that's where Clumba's eye line would have been.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

I love that moment. Like he's he's that's all he's focused on is her breast, basically. And she comes to the club, she dances for him, then his girlfriend, Margot, comes in, and there's a big fight because she thinks that he's gonna sleep with this woman. And I just there it's interesting about his character again. Like, I I got the impression he did this, he brought this woman to the club because he needed that kind of ego boost of watching somebody dance for him, of somebody that he has to approve. It puts him in a position of power again after it's been taken away from him. So you really do see like all these different push and pull of his character.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

That's a nice interpretation because I've always wondered exactly how that scene, which is an odd scene, fit into the overall narrative of the film. But I your comment about him reasserting kind of his autonomy in the world by holding this rehearsal or uh what's the correct English language word? Audition. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

And by the way, you see that further when the Margaret comes in and she she attacks this this woman who's dancing, the woman runs out, and you know, Cosmo tries to kind of calm her down. He gets some alcohol, tries to pour it into her mouth, she won't drink it. Like there is an he says to her, you know, I'm a club owner, I I I deal in in girls. That's what his his his job is. But there does feel like a little bit of a power play here. And even when they're, and just to step forward go forward a little bit, when they're at the diner with these gangsters, he projects a level of confidence that he really shouldn't have, considering the sort of situation that he is in. Yes. They're like, Do you want to kill this guy? Like, no, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that. And they ask him if you kill people, yeah, I kill people. You know, I shot, I shot people in Korea, right? Like, there is a an I mean, a lot of this movie is about him trying to project this image to the world that is and you s you know, that is not the reality of who he really is or his his experience.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Yes, and there's certainly aspects of a facade of the character, and we don't want to jump all the way ahead to the very end of the movie, but he talks a little bit about, you know, the the role that he's playing in life when he's backstage with the girls toward the end of the film.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Right. So so I mean, I th this is why this movie, I mean, we there is a plot in this movie, we will get to it in a second. But like this movie really is just a character study about Cosmo Vitelli. That's what this movie is about. And and and and and as far as the other actors in this movie, I mean, none of them have more than a few minutes of screen time. And it's really just as how they interact i with with uh Cosmo. Even Seymour Cassell, I think it's great, but it's a very subtle performance, it's it's wonderful. Timothy Carey is is as always wonderful, but like this sh this movie is about Ben Ghazar. It's about him. And uh everything else is kind of secondary to that. Um so yeah, so I I I that's why I think this movie is so interesting because it's such a such a great character study, and you really do get this. I mean, do you feel sorry for him? I mean, I guess that's a question that I was thinking about a little bit. Like, do you have empathy for him or does he just seem like a schmuck who makes bad decisions?

SPEAKER_01 37:04

That's a fascinating question because when you said it, I realized I had never fully processed that. I don't feel devastated when bad things happen to him. But I'm he's he's certainly my character. We're certainly following him, we're with him the whole movie, but it's not sort of a tragedy where you have a character you're following and things go or don't go well for them, and then you're kind of with them or not with them. That's that's a that's interesting. What is my relationship with Cosmo? I'm actually not sure. I mean, other than rapt fascination.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

Yeah. I mean, I that's interesting. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of that. I part of me does empathize with him. That he is somebody who, like, I don't know, he thinks he's an artist, he believes in what he's doing with this club, and he is kind of caught up by his vices. He's caught up by his um his uh uh excesses of his own personality. I mean, I do think there's there's something very sad about him, and you shouldn't really, you shouldn't really feel sorry for him. I mean, he he he makes his own bed. There's no question about it. He certainly does. And and so just to back to the plot a second, I mean, they tell him they want him to kill this this Chinese bokeh. He says no, he goes back to the club, nothing really happens, and then they come back, the gangsters, and they make very clear to him this is what he's gonna do. And they beat him up and they take away. Well they rough him up. They rough him up. They rough him up. They give yeah, yeah, that's fair. They don't beat him up, but they definitely he get he gets punched a little bit. And uh they tell him, like, here's a car, here's the gun, you know, here's what you're gonna do. And the way it's told to him that this guy is like a low-level Chinese bookie. Yes, but in fact, he is like the kingpin, the Chinese mafia kingpin of LA that he has to go out and kill. And I don't know, there's something about like it the way it's funny because even in those scenes, he has this like smug sort of look on his face, like this is like he somehow is smarter than the people around him, or that he can outs outwit them. And of course he never actually does. Uh that that's what I think is so fascinating about his about Gazara's performance in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yes, and it gets us into just an astonishing 20-minute sequence from in the back of the car with the with the mobsters until the 20 minutes that follow is just an when he has to he has going on this mission to kill this so-called Chinese bookie is just 20 million 20 minutes of astonishing celluloid.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

And by the way, this is what a gangster film in the 70s is like, because this is this would be made in a completely different manner if it was made today, right? So what happens? He drives his car, the car has a problem with the colour. It's like a blowout. Doesn't have a blowout or something. Something happens, but the car basically breaks down on the highway, he runs out of the car, um, he has this amazing phone call that he does. This is where I think you get a lot of insight into Kazara's character. He gets out of the car, he runs through a phone, but what's the first thing he does? Now, this guy is being sent to kill this Chinese bookie. His car has blown out. Something has happened to it. He can't drive there. What's the first thing that you would do, Jonathan? Would you? I mean, I I I I well, I mean, if this happened to you, would you then call your club and find out what's happening on stage at that time? I probably would have done something else. But that's what Benghazar does. Yes. And why does he do that? Let's talk about this. Because I think we agree. This moment in the film, he runs to a phone booth, he calls the club, is the pinnacle of this movie. And I think you might argue one of the pinnacles of the new Hollywood.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Yes. I mean, I cannot say enough about this scene, but again, it's nested in this 20 minutes from the car with the gangsters to the shooting and its aftermath. It's so dark, you know, it makes you think of Dylan. You know, it's getting dark, too dark to see. There's a lot of stuff here. You can barely make out things. It's so dark. And and of course, I I lap that up by candy. But as you said, things go awry from the start. The car has the blowout, he has to dash across the highway, he makes his way to a phone booth, and what does he do? He, you know, he calls the club to find out what number is being played. And of course, his, you know, affiliates at the club don't really pay attention to such things, and he's astonished that they don't understand which number is up and what's the background and all of that. And he goes so far as to sing, I can't give you anything but love, baby, uh, to kind of prime them to understand exactly which, you know, numbers should be up, and they still don't get it. But here's what I want to say about that scene. And I'll I I'm not the only one who feels this way. When he's in that phone booth at night in the midst of this hit that he's yet to execute, and he calls the club and sings to his affiliates, I can't give you anything but love, baby. I'm gonna go Citizen Kane to Roger Ebert on you here. There's a line in Citizen Kane where Mr. Bernstein, Edward Sloan, says, tells a story about how he once saw a girl carrying a parasol in 1899 on the Staten Island Ferry, and he looked at her, she didn't even see him, and yet not a month in his life has gone by subsequently where he didn't think of that girl. And then Ebert, in his review, says that not a month in his life has gone by where he didn't think of that scene with Mr. Bernstein. And I will throw down this gauntlet. It's not a gauntlet, it is a truth tell. I don't think a month of my life has ever gone by where I have not thought in my head of Ben Gazara singing, I can't give you anything but love, baby, in that phone booth in this movie. And that's why I'm just so totally in awe of that moment. And a movie that can do that can do almost anything.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

Yeah, I mean, I I look, we it's funny, we had a little conversation before we recorded where I just said, I said sort of off the cuff, I'm like, that's the pinnacle of the movie. And John was like so disappointed because now we're going to agree on this and the disagree when we can. But like it is just an incredible moment in the film that tells you everything you need to know about this character. That this is even in the in a moment of extraordinary stress and extraordinary anxiety, uh, in which he's being asked to kill somebody, he is still focused on his art, what he thinks of as his art, right? That that is what is is the drop drives him and motivates him. And and I it's an extraordinary moment. And everything after this scene, you know, again, I I it's funny about Cassavetti's, I mean, he didn't do any other gangster films, but I when I watch this, I kind of feel like he maybe could have done some gangster films because he handles this stuff so well. You know, Gizara goes to the to the restaurant to get hamburgers because they want to they want to get the knock the dog out, right? And he it's a very funny scene where he said, Don't wrap the don't wrap the burgers, which by the way, like kind of giving it away that like when the cops come and they're like, Somebody order burgers to. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the smartest criminal mind here, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: But when you talk about this movie as you know, a 70s gagtion movie as opposed to a contemporary gagtion movie, that scene where he buys the burgers, that's something that you would not see today. And having a little friendly argument with the woman who's saying, You need you need the burgers wrapped. Come on, they're gonna get all squishy if I don't wrap them and put them in the back. It's it's a it's such a beautiful little moment. And also, it's just it's hard to kill. It's hard to pull off a hit. You got the blown-out tire, you're trying to buy hamburgers and you're having trouble. It's it's it's such a beautiful, again, that that whole kind of 20 minutes. But I do want to say about Casavetti's.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Can I say one thing about that really quick? I it's another example of where I think Cosmo is trying to exert some level of control and show that he is in charge, right? Like the it it doesn't like just wrap what the hell's the difference. Wrap them, you can unwrap them when you get there, but he's like says no. He basically puts his foot down and says, this is how I want this to be. It's again, it's a small little gesture, but it's like very similar to what you almost when you see in the diner. Like he is like, I'm in control. No one's gonna tell me what to do. I'm gonna like assert myself. And that's kind of what he does there in a and in a way that like makes no sense at all, but except as like an element of his personality.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yes. And but to your question about could Casaves have made more gangster movies, again, Casavedes did not like violence. He and he did, and as I said earlier, he was not into showing a lot of sexuality uh overtly in his films. And there's there's a backstory here. I have no idea if the story is true, but it's one of my favorite stories that Casavedes was so reticent about violence that they're in production, they're sitting around, and it's the gang, right? Al Rubin is there, Ben Gazara is there, uh, you know, Casal is probably there, and Casavedes is saying, yeah, and you know, maybe we don't kill him. And and and the and and the retort is, John, it's the name of the movie. It's the name of the movie. Yeah, exactly. You kind of can't avoid it, really. Again, I have no idea if that story is true, but I love that story.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

No, it's but you know, and and and and let's not talk about the killing, because basically he sneaks into this heavily guarded complex. The the the the guy he used to kill is this old man who's in a he's in like a uh like a little pool with uh a young woman. He gets out and he sees Ghazar with the gun. And there's a a line here that is so counterintuitive to what you would expect. He says, I'm a bad person. Yeah. Like as if he recognizes that he deserves to die. It's such a bizarre thing to happen. And again, if this movie was made today, that is not how that scene would unfold. And beyond that, you would see the violence. You would see Kazar shoot him. You just see Kazar holding the gun, pulling the trigger. You don't see the bookie actually get shot. You do see Kazar shoot his two henchmen who come running into the room afterward. But interestingly enough, you don't see the actual violence. And again, it's like you I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

It's also not really kind of a bloodbath in the way a contemporary situation would be a bloodbath. There's a young woman there, and she, I think, escapes unscathed. I think it's a good thing. Yeah, and her life. And again, it's very dark, and and somehow Cosmo gets out of there. It's it's it's a it's a wonderfully executed sequence.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Yeah. And he and somehow he escapes. Like this is the thing that's a crazy. Like, I know that he had like he had been in Korea and he'd kill people in Korea, but this guy's a pretty good hitman, right? He actually, he I mean, he did get winged. We do know he gets shot, but he did did the job and and he didn't get killed. But he was supposed to get killed. And this is where you realize that the whole thing was a setup. He was gonna kill this guy, the Chinese bookie, and he was then gonna be killed in the process, and the gangsters who set him up for it would have their hands wiped clean of the whole situation.

SPEAKER_03 48:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

But Cosmo is a pretty good, pretty good contract killer. He shoots him, he gets away. Which then leads to, I know your other favorite scene where the gangsters all sit around in the restaurant and they realize, oh shit, he survived.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

No, but but before we get to that, again, this this continues with his escape, right? Which involves buses and taxis and all this moving around, and he has has been shot, he has a bullet in his side. So you have Cosmo, you know, traveling the city as he makes his escape away from this hit. And then I think he does make it back to her house. I've already forgotten the name of his own.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

He makes it back to his girlfriend's house. Yes, to mother's house. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

And that's when we realize he's he's been shot pretty good in the side. And then we cut to the restaurant, and it is such a beautiful scene because word of mouth from gangster to gangster passes quietly and subtly about what has gone down. And again, it's Cassell who is just so wonderful here, where he gets this news and he's with some people, and he says, uh, excuse me, I have to freshen up, or something a little incongruous like that, but you know, very calmly. And then he gets up and he and he's and he seeks out uh Timothy Carey, who said he was some people, and he kind of gently sends them away and explains to Carey that actually, you know, we have a problem on our hands. Cosmo has survived this, and this is now your problem, uh Timothy Carey, because you know we've got to we've now got to get rid of Cosmo. But if you this scene in and of itself in the restaurant, as this information is being told almost by it like a game of telephone, from hand to hand, from one participant to another. And there's a Val Avery sighting there. It's his only scene in the movie, but he's at the table as a gangster, and Val Avery looked, looked like he played a good gangster. Wait, who was it again? Sorry. He's uh a 70s character actor, and he just happened to be at the gangster table, uh, also kind of talking about those. It was just nice to see him show up. But the way in which this information is processed by each individual and passed by word of mouth one to the other. Here is what happened, here's what has to happen next, and it's done with such subtlety and restraint. I think it's easy to overlook the scene because it comes in between two action-packed scenes, and there's not a lot of action in this restaurant scene. There are people quietly informing each other of what has gone down, and they have to do it in a subtle way because they're at a restaurant, and so they can't just burst into saying out loud problems like that. And I I do, I think it's one of the more beautiful scenes in the movie, and again, because it is so subtle in the way in which information is passed from one character to another as they process what has happened and what they then must do next. Right, which is to kill Cosmo.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

And in fact, Timothy characters, uh Timothy Carey's character who gets stuck with the job of having to do this. And, you know, they go to the club, they pick him up, they bring him to this garage, and you know, there uh Cosmo turns into, you know, Jason Bourne, right? I mean, it's actually kind of an amazing scene where he has been shot, by the way. And I'm gonna get to this in a second. He's been shot, but uh at at the garage, Timothy Carey, who basically had been uh told by Cassell that you have to kill him, basically fobs it off on Cassell and says, you have to kill him, which Cassell agrees to do. But before he can do that, and he tells him, like, I'm really impressed with what you did, like, I'm sorry that it came to this. Like he like, I think they are genuinely like in awe of the fact that he pulled his job off. Yet nonetheless, Gazara kills Cassell and he escapes. But let's let's slow, slow. I just I get I'm giving the summary synopsis, but now we're gonna dig into what actually happens in this scene.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Because this is this is also 10 minutes, and it is also draped in my beloved darkness. And also, points of orientation are withheld. So you often don't know exactly where you are in the garage, or at least I didn't know. And first, Timothy Carey comes in and he has a confrontation with Cosmo, and it's a really human conversation. And one of the things that I think speaks to Casavetis and a lot of sophisticated filmmakers is it's actually not as easy, and this is a good thing, to kill someone as you might get the impression it was from watching movies. So Timothy Carey's a gangster, but when confronted with the idea is, okay, well, here's a gun, and now go kill this person, and he finds out uh that he's unable to do it. I mean, he was tasked with this, it's a very big deal, and he chats with Cosmo, and Cosmo kind of says to him, you know, you're out of your league, man. This is this is not what who you are. You, you know, do yourself a favor and take a walk. And he does. He does. And it's uh it's three stages. There's there's the Timothy Carey character, and then he passes the ball back to Casal saying, You told me to do this? Well, guess what? You know, I'm telling you to do it. And then Casal is superseded by yet another killer. But the Casal conversation, as you already described, is also a very interesting one. And again, his his humanity is there. I have watched this over and over again. Cosmo, does Cosmo shoot him or strike him in the head?

SPEAKER_02 53:27

So confusing because I I can't tell either. I mean, he kills him, but it looks like he slams the door on him, but then he appears to have been shot. It's very confusing.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

So I thought he struck him in the head like with the butt of the gun or something. It happens so fast and so suddenly.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Yeah, and it's not really clear and it's not clear if it's a gunshot or not. It could be the car door closing. It's very confusing. And I actually want to get to this because this is something that I don't know if this is correct or not. I'm just gonna throw this out here. He gets shot in the chest. I mean, in the chest, in the stomach. It's a gut shot. Okay. Those are usually killers, right? That's you don't survive very long if you've been gut shot. And when he goes to his girlfriend's mother's apartment, he is lying on the bed, he is in clear agony, and somehow from that point on, you don't see him in agony, you don't see him in pain for the rest of the movie, which really made me wonder. And I'm this I'm throwing this out here, uh is this a dream for everything that goes on after this, after he's dead? Because there is something or or maybe he's dying and he has this dream, because there's something about there's a great shot of him lying on a bed, and you see the look of trauma on his face, right? And then the next thing you know, he's fine. And it's not until the really the end of the movie, at the absolute like last scene, one of the last scenes of the movie, that you see him put his hand in his pocket and realize he's bleeding.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

And I it makes me think that that something I don't know if it's a dream or if it's like an a fable. I don't know what's going on here. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

So I don't I don't I don't embrace that theory, but I like it. I mean, he when he is back at Margot's apartment and and he's bleeding on the bed. He looks like he's in enormous distress. And if you want to tell a story that everything that happens now is a kind of a projection or a hallucination or or what have you, that's plausible. But I have a I I don't think that's what the movie was doing, and I have a different interpretation of the gunshot. I don't think a vital organ was hit. I think he was winged in the side, I don't think it nailed any organs, and I think he is bleeding out. I still can't explain why he's in better shape when he leaves the apartment than when he enters the apartment.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

This is what I'm saying. And I don't know that I believe my own theory either, but there's something strange about it's either a uh uh just a an editing problem or just a the the way it's put together where like he doesn't like there he is in too good of health after being shot. For I mean, he does a lot of stuff. He goes back to the club, he gets picked up, he goes and he shoots the Cassell, then he gets he escapes, then he goes back to Margot's apartment. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that happens here.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

He does not appear to be in distress. So again, I don't buy the dream story, but what I like about it is the garage sequence has an otherworldly quality to it. 100%, you know, I said you're not given enough points of orientation. Another thing that I love about the garage sequence is so it's left to gangster number three to kind of finish Cosmo off. And they're playing cat and mouse, wandering through the recesses of this garage. And what I love so much about the scene is that they then withhold the any action. They just eventually cut, and Cosmo somehow got out of the garage, and the guy didn't kill him. Yes. And we're not there with, you know, a tremendous amount of shooting or action. He doesn't finish off the third guy, and therefore he's kind of taken out all three of them one way or another, which is definitely the kind of default setting of how it might happen. Rather, he just eludes, you know, his his pursuer. And and and that is with that action is withheld from us. Which I really appreciate.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

No, it's great. I mean, actually, I kind of love the cha this this chase in the garage because it's really just all chase and no action, right? Yeah. I mean, you don't even see him shooting Cassell, you just see him escaping, and you see the guy coming after him, like looking into wind looking indoors and seeing if he's looking in rooms and seeing if he's there, he's not there, and he gets away. That's why it makes me think that I'm not sure this actually happens. I mean, I again I I'm really I might be reaching here, but there is something really odd about everything that happens after that scene of distress. And I was watching it again, I noticed that scene. I'm like, boy, he looks like he's in a lot of pain. And he would be in a lot of pain. He got shot in the stomach. Um, and you know, the idea that the end movie he is bleeding enough where he puts his hands pocket and sees he's bleeding. Why isn't he bleeding before that? Why in the garage is this guy searching for him, not just like looking for blood drops? Because that's what you would think would happen. Now, maybe, maybe Marg's mother like sewed him up somehow and and he's fine.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

She did she did not because he goes back, he goes back to their place. He does exactly. It's and she says, You think you could live with that bullet in you, but you can't.

SPEAKER_02 58:15

Well, it's possible that she like fixed it, like like closed the wound or something. But like if there's a bullet inside of you, like that's pretty bad. Like, you need to get that out. So I I don't I it's weird. I don't know what to make of it. And I I think it is one, it's either um, it's either supposed to give you this idea that maybe this is not real, or it's just a problem with the look, a lot of times in Hollywood films, they someone gets shot and they survive miraculously long. We talked about the marathon man. It feels like though, in the 70s, like in this era of filmmaking, like if you get shot, like you're not gonna just kind of stick around for a long time. Like you're gonna, you're gonna it's gonna be over for you pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

So I'm I'm embracing your theory. I think in the first visits to the house, Margot's mom actually kind of patched him up enough to stabilize him. But did she but she patched him up and stabilized him. And then he was able to go, and then he comes back, and then there's an it's another really beautiful scene because then she sends him on his way. She says, you know, I don't know what happened, I don't want to know what happened, but you're, you know, and we've been very close, but I don't want any part of this. You're you're no longer really welcome here.

SPEAKER_02 59:24

Aaron Powell Yeah, she really pushes him out the door. She said, I don't want you to be here. You're gonna, you know, I don't know why you got shot, but I I think it's gonna come back and harm me. I do think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

But he does refer to her as mom. I mean, obviously that's figurative, but there's a closeness, or at least not his from his point of view, there's a closeness in their relationship.

SPEAKER_02 59:41

And I'm gonna give a shout out to Philip uh Lopate, who who wrote I read that he pronounces. Yes, Philip Lopate. Okay. So he wrote something, he wrote this, you mentioned earlier, the um his criterion essay for on the cooked. And one point he makes, I think it's really spot on, I hadn't thought about this earlier, was that you know, he goes he he goes there in a sense, you you could almost imagine he thinks of Margot and her her mother as being like his family, people who love him.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

And ultimately they tell him, we don't want this issue in our home, we don't want you here, you have to leave. And where does he go? The only place he has any family at all is the club. And what happens? He goes to the club and he gives a sort of pep talk to the dancers and to Mr. Mr. Umphistication.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

Because they've had a they've had another one of their many fights. Because business sophistication is a very delicate genius. Very delicate genius. He gets very miffed when people aren't appreciating the contributions he's making to the act.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

But I do think there's something symbolic about him leaving this place that you could say would be uh like uh not a f a family, but would certainly be a place that people would take him in, and they're like, we don't want this. The only place where he's really at home is at his club. And he goes to the club, obviously, goes through the sort of whole sort of talk with the dancers, tells them how important is what they're doing, how they're gonna leave it all out on stage and you know, do it for the audience, and they go and do their thing. And and by the way, the final piece of this is Mr. Fascination delivering this rendition of um what's the same song.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

Yeah, I can't give you anything but love.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

But in a very angry, oh yeah just very angry tone. Like almost like attacking the audience, you'd say.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

Yes. Yeah, it's the last parts of the movie are obviously important, otherwise they wouldn't have been the last parts of the movie. Right. And so, you know, Cosmo going backstage and putting the act back together because they were really, you know, uh they had probably had a big row. And also, you know, Bargo is not coming back, and and Cosmo says that to the audience, and that's that's a very big deal to him. He kind of talks backstage to the act about the contradictions in his own life. Yes. And and this does speak to what we talked about earlier in the discussion about his strange self-destructive streak. He kind of acknowledges that uh in in the conversation with them. And then, you know, when he comes out and talks to the audience about the act and about, you know, essentially the show must go on, biased, he buys everyone in the house around, and then they come out, and yes, it's it's a it's a fascinating moment. And then, as you've already told us, he goes out on the street, you know, puts his hand in his pocket. Oh, he might got a pocket full of blood. I'm bleeding. And then, of course, the, you know, the credits roll because, you know, we're left to our own thoughts, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

That's it. But I I and I assume that I mean, my assumption is that at the end of the movie he he dies. I mean, I I don't we don't it's not shown. Uh but there is something, I think, symbolic about that he discovers the blood on him when he leaves the club.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:51

Ah, very nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

When he departs, right? Like reality is kind of now, you know, punching him in the face, if you will, and reminding him that it's been gutshot. I don't know. That's how I read it at least. But I mean, I think that it's this is why I go back to this whole last year of the movie is very odd. And it it it feels almost not dreamlike is not the right way to put it. It feels somehow not real. But I don't I think you're right. I don't get the impression that this is a dream sequence, but it it has a little bit of that element to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

Yes. And as we get toward toward the end of the movie, once again, as we've talked about with several of the movies that have some differences. We talked about this with Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice. We observed this just last time with Mikey and Nikki. This is a movie that has maybe seven movements in it. Yes. It takes its time. More than half of them are at night and beautifully so, and they're, you know, each of them one after the other in sequence. It's just, it's very Cassavetti's is an acquired taste. And many of listeners out there will never acquire that taste. Uh but if you want to try and acquire that taste, I do think the short version of the killing of a Chinese bookie is a great place to start to try. Um, and and and it won't and it won't catch on, I think, for a lot of people. It it really demands a certain type of tolerance for scenes that go in a way that you're not used to scenes going on. They're not these kind of tight little units.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:29

Right. I think that, you know, Casper is known for this of having scenes that just drag on longer than you would feel comfortable. And we talked about this last week with Mikey and Nikki, that has some of that too. Uh Woman of the Influence, I think, is the best example of this. There are scenes in that movie that drag on really long and you wish they would just stop. This movie is not as much that. There are moments like it. I think that this the like the nightclub scenes in particular drag on a bit longer than they probably should. I mean, in some ways, the Chase scene maybe drags on longer than it maybe needs to. But those two, no, I need them both.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

I need to. Fair enough. Fair enough. But you know. Um sucker for that thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I I guess more, it's uh maybe more to the point that the scene drags on. It I say drags on, the scene continues in a way and doesn't give you any new information. Right? There's there's some element of that where the scenes are where they're telling you things that you don't really need to know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Yes. I think my theory of the Casavetti's long scene is that the scene goes and you think you've gotten to the end, and then it continues, and you're sitting there saying, why is this continuing? And when it works, it enters a third stage where you've kind of played it out and you have nowhere to go but to achieve a certain type of reality or insight. And incongruity alert, this reminds me of Andy Warhol's screen tests. He used to have celebrities come to the factory and he'd say, Do you want to do a screen test? And they'd say, Oh yeah, I'd love to do a screen test. And he would shoot them with a with a camera, and they would pose, and he would just keep the camera training. And they would hold the pose for as long as they could, and then eventually you can't hold a pose any longer. Interesting. And he and then whatever they were as people would be more revealed to the camera when they were no longer able to kind of hold the facade of the pose for so long. And I think that's, I really think that's what Casavetez was going for with the long scene in those three phases. The proper scene, oh my God, it's going on too long. And then where do you go from here? You go digging towards a certain type of underlying reality that otherwise would not have been exposed. Yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:34

That's a good way to look at it. I mean, I don't think this movie does that. I mean, especially the shorter version has that much of an element, but there are definitely parts of this where it feels like the scenes maybe go longer than they need to to the point that you made. By the way, I want to just mention before we get any further that I just realized that we keep referring to Margot as his girlfriend. In fact, her name is Rachel. I just looked at my notes. I had this backwards. Margot is the white uh girl with the blonde hair, and Rachel is the black woman uh who is whose mom he goes to visit. So just Well, I'm notoriously bad with names, so I will just, you know, my bad. I look, I'm bad too, because you said Margot, and I'm like, oh yeah, that's Margot. But I we had a little bit backwards there. So just for those of you listening, if you gotten to this point along, every time we said Margot, we actually meant Rachel. So to speak learning on that point. Uh but I I I think, you know, I it's interesting what you say. I mean, I there is, you're right, this is a movie with like maybe seven or eight kind of scenes in the movie. There's not a lot that I mean, the and the plot for as much as it exists, is really that 20 minutes uh where he's you know going to kill the bookie and escaping. I mean, we get the what happens before, but really this is uh there's there's not a lot that happens action-wise in the movie. This is really just about Cosmos' character. And I'll say it again, like we talked about earlier, like I think his character is such a fascinating character and is somebody I asked you, I asked you earlier if you felt sorry for him. And I mean, I do I mean, I maybe the better question is do you like his character? I mean, I think I find him pathetic and sad, but I I kind of do like him. He has a certain kind of um uh uh um what's the word I'm looking for? Survival element to me. And it like there's something he he feels like a guy who could who always sort of lands on his feet or figures out ways, even though he always makes these mistakes. There's something really compelling about him, his personality. At the same time, you also sort of look at him and think, this guy's a loser.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

But compelling about his about his character is is so crucial. We talk so often about 70s films and how they have flawed protagonists. But you can't just throw a flawed protagonist out there. They have to have a certain type of compelling character. There has to have this charisma, they have to be interesting. You can't just flawed is not enough, right? You have to be both flawed and somehow extremely fascinating and or charismatic, even in the context of all your flaws. Otherwise, you're just annoying. And so I do think that this really distinguishes the fascinating 70s antagonists or you know, anti-heroes versus the non-interesting ones.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:03

I totally agree with you. I mean, he's not annoying. Even though if you can I again, I go back to the earlier I mentioned the scene going to the the gambling uh the casino, he just comes across like so pathetic in that scene, the way he brings the corsages and and that he has the limo, and it's just everything about it just reeks of like sadness. But yet there are other elements of him where you feel like he does take this, what he does seriously. You do sort of respect the way that he handles the shooting. There is some element of him where you are kind of rooting for him. Um, I don't know. You know, I just think it's it's one of the best character portrayals we've seen of any of the movies we've talked about. I mean, because really this movie is just about this one character. This is not a movie that is really about much more than just Ben Gazara. And I'll say one thing about 70s movies too. Like this movie today, a a star, an actor of Ben Gazara's stature would never be the lead in a movie like this, right? It would be an action hero. It would be like, you know, The Rock or, I don't know, Mac Damon or like, you know, a younger Bruce Willis. It would not be Ben Gazara, who, as Bill Godfrey told us, like could even get a show right back in the 80s. And and it'd be a much worse movie. It would be a much worse movie. I mean, and and so you get like moves like this where it's funny, we we were gonna talk about the late show, uh, which is a movie um directed by um what's it? Robert Benton. Robert Benton, thank you. And it's and they the lead is Art Carney. Yeah. And I and my when I watched it, I it's a good movie. I liked it, but one thing I thought about was like, boy, this movie made today, there's not a chance in hell a guy who looks like Art Carney was gonna be the lead of this movie. But you get that in the 70s. You get you get some of these interesting movies where people that you don't expect to be lead actors are given the chance. And you all and you understand, like, boy, I'm glad they did that because Jesus Christ is Ben Bazaar good in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:48

Certainly is.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

Certainly is. All right, I think we have killed the Killing of Chinese bookie, if you will. Uh, this is a great movie. If you haven't seen it, definitely watch it. I I we we talked about the Hutcher's Cut. I think watch that, but maybe go back and watch the the earlier one. There is some interesting stuff in that film that's worth checking out. Uh, this is our first Cassavetes movie. We will do more, I promise. We I mean we can't talk about 70s filmmaking without talking about John Cassavetti's. We last week we did one where he starts, this week did one of these directs. We're gonna talk at some point about opening night and under the influence. And I don't know if we'll do husbands and faces, but we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:25

I'm especially keen to do opening night. Husbands, husbands would be a bit of a climb. I mean, I I love it, but my goodness, I don't know if I want to watch it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:34

I mean, I that's how I feel everyone knows in the influence. I I really, really want to do that movie at some point, but Jesus Christ, I don't want to watch it again. Uh, I'm just being honest about it. Um, anyway, listen, guys, we loved also having your comments in here. And if you have any movies you want to see, we got some great recommendations over the past uh week. I mentioned some of them at the beginning of the show. Please send them to us. We'd love to hear ideas, we'd love to hear from you and give us your comments. And again, subscribe, leave a thumbs up, buy us coffee, all the great things we asked you to do. Thank you, everybody. Jonathan, we'll see you next week, and bye bye.