That 70s Movie Podcast
A look back at the films that defined cinema's greatest era - the 1970s!
That 70s Movie Podcast
Straight Time
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This week on "That '70s Movie Podcast, Jonathan and Michael go up the river for the 1978 crime drama "Straight Time."
We loved this nuanced and thematically rich late '70s cult classic, particularly for Dustin Hoffman's grounded and bravura =performance as Max Dembo, an ex-convict trying to follow the straight and narrow ... and failing miserably. But we also had tons of praise for the supporting cast, including Gary Busey, Theresa Russell, and Mr. M. Emmet Walsh, as well as Ulu Grossbard's efficient and effective direction.
So pull up your pants, don't dawdle, and give this episode a listen!
If you're enjoying the podcast, please consider buying us a cup of coffee, and don't forget to subscribe and leave a comment. We love to hear from you!
Thank you, Annie.
SPEAKER_01Can we just say something? I know you got something. Yeah, I got something. Oh, just do it. Don't you want to know what it is? I don't give a damn what it is. It's just do it.
SPEAKER_00Welcome everybody to the latest episode of That 70s Movie Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Lee Cohen, joined by my co-host, Jonathan Kirshner. Jonathan, as I ask you every week, how are you doing today? As I say most weeks, hanging in there. Yeah, well, that sounds like uh where we all are these days. Uh before we get into today's film, um just I want to ask you quickly anything you've seen recently that uh you want to talk about, you want to bring up today?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I had to watch uh screen the new Criterion uh 4K edition of John Houston's last film, The Dead, because I'm gonna be writing about it. And it is such a great movie. I've I've seen it many times. It was such a pleasure to revisit it. It is so beautiful and precise. It's also Houston's last film. He was signed up to do a film afterwards, but I think he understood it was probably his last film. And he really had this very late career flowering in which he did a handful of outstanding pictures in the 1980s as an older person. And movie directing is a job that is often has a bad final act. Uh the greats often kind of keep it out.
SPEAKER_00Huh? I hate third-act problems.
SPEAKER_01That's that's always but he he finished with a streak of not just excellent films, but but vigorous and youthful films. I wouldn't call the dead either vigorous or youthful, though I think it's an out flat-out masterpiece. But the three or four films before that, if you said to the viewer, who made this movie, an older director or a younger director, I think most viewers would st assume it was a younger man's work.
SPEAKER_00Okay. All right. So that's that that's that's something there. Now, I want to say that after last week's episode, I went back and I watched um Minority Report, which I know you had said you you enjoyed that movie. Boy, that's a great film. And um, you know, the thing is what I was struck by in watching it again is that you do see a lot of the sort of Spielbergian elements that can really um annoy, just kind of like the sentimentality and like he overdoes it with the score, and he tries to be sort of sort of sometimes too cute by half. Uh, but that movie I think is is one of his better films. Even I can s I see some flaws in it, but I think it's really well done, even though it stars Tom Cruise, who is not, I think, a go-to actor for either one of us. Um Exactly. Although I think we both we give him credit for his performance in Eyes Wide Shut, a movie that we both we both love.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. But I do think Minority Report could be my favorite Spielberg film.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's really good. Um I also with the kids uh we watched uh the Indian Jones The Last Crusade, the the uh the third one of the Sean Connery one. I gotta say, uh it was not as good as I remembered it. And it was a little like again, look, I get that these the Indiana Jones movies are kind of playing on these sort of action adventure movies from like the 30s and the 40s, I guess, or even maybe even earlier. But you know, it's again, it's the Spielberg big blockbuster cheesiness thing that kind of comes into some of those movies, even though some of the set pieces in that film are incredible.
SPEAKER_01Um but you know there's but if I remember correctly, that movie has one of the great lines in the history of cinema and one that is now increasingly relevant. I think it's when uh Connery and Ford are outside a window, they peer in, and they're a bunch of Nazis doing bad things or planning something, and Ford turns to Sakaldery and says, Nazis, I hate those guys.
SPEAKER_00Always relevant. Actually, when it comes to Nazi-related uh movie lines, I always think of the line from the Blues Brothers where I hate Illinois Nazis right before he tries to run them over. So that's the one I always think of. Uh both are classics of the genre. Uh okay, we also just got some really good comments from people. Uh we had one comment on Spotify who uh mentioned War of the Worlds, which is actually a good, a very 9-11 influenced movie, this person said. I agree. I think it's actually one of his better later films. Um also some shout outs for Jaws, which, you know, again, we're gonna have to do it whether you like it or not. Um and also, actually, this was kind of cool. Somebody said we should do Day of the Jackal, a movie that I love. So there you go. I think you're on the hook now for that. Now that now that we've gotten a uh a shout-out from a from a listener.
SPEAKER_01Um Brandy, it's a little clunky for me, but you know, once Michael Lonsdale enters the building, I'm a happy man.
SPEAKER_00Uh you know, that that's the movie. We talk a lot about how nostalgia plays a big role in movies we love. My dad loved that movie, and so we watched it when that was when I was a kid. And you know, I think it's really I think it's a really good film. I really like it a lot. Uh I love good spy thrillers like that, and or just I guess good procedurals. And um it's good, but I also think that I have I have a reverence for it that probably is greater than maybe it even deserves just because I I, you know, it was a it was a very big film when I was growing up uh as a kid, so it matters. We also got our old friend Curly Pubes. He he he uh he came in again. He's back. He is back, Curly Pubes is back, and he expressed uh v excitement, I would call call it, over the potential of us doing a Columbo episode. So you know, just between the two of us and those listening, I have started to watch some old Columbos, and I'm getting ready for us to eventually do a Columbo-centric episode.
SPEAKER_01Ah, it's very exciting.
SPEAKER_00Very exciting. I watched the one with uh John Cassavetes. Oh, yeah. Where he plays the conductor. Yeah, that's a good one. I liked it. It was a little clunk, it's a little clunky to be honest. It's a little clunky.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, but it doesn't matter because just seeing the two of them together is such a exactly. That's exactly right. It's like a Mikey and Nicky reunion, you know? I think it's directed by Coach from Cheers. Is that right? No kidding. I didn't know that. Nicolas Colasanto. He did a couple of Columbos.
SPEAKER_00I wanted to give a shout-out to two people. So last week we we asked if you like um the podcast that you might consider buying us a cup of coffee. And uh a couple of you did. But I want to just mention uh a a real big fan of the podcast, Paul Cunningham, who said he wanted to let us know that he listens to us while driving around, inspecting the bridges of Sligo County, northwest of Ireland, which provides a spectacular back backdrop to your great debate. So I want to say to Paul, that was really a nice note to receive, and we really do appreciate it. So thank you very much for that.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's such a pleasure to receive these notes. And just to let you know, they don't have to be that good. I mean, that's really raising the bar for for a note, but uh, you know, we'll take anything.
SPEAKER_00We'll take anything, really. Really. It'll just be like a thumbs up is nice. But that was a very nice note from Paul. We really appreciate it. So thank you so much. Uh okay. So today, what are we talking about? Uh the 1978 prison drama? No. No. The 1978 convict drama? I don't know. It's 1978. It's called Straight Time. It stars Dustin Hoffman. It is directed by Ulu Grossbard. Uh, the bell tolls for you, Grossbard. You know what that reference is? No. This is a Seinfeld reference. And there'll be another Seinfeld reference later in this episode. Uh that is correct.
SPEAKER_01Once my memory was jogged, it came rushing back.
SPEAKER_00There we go. Um This is a movie that's based on a book by Edward Bunker called No Beast So Fierce. Screenplay is by Alvin Sargert, Edward Bunker, and Jeffrey uh Bohm. Also, uh Michael Mann, director, was an uncredited writer on the screenplay for this movie. As I mentioned, stars Dustin Hoffman, also stars Harry Dean Stanton, Gary Busey, Theresa Russell, uh M. Emmett Walsh, Kathy Bates, and Sandy Barron. And I bring him up because Seinfeld reference. We'll get to that in a second. Uh cinematography is by her old favorite, Owen Roysman, edited by Sam Osteen and Randy Roberts. Music by David Shire. I think we've done a whole host of David Shire uh films so far. Uh this movie was not nominated for any Academy Award. Actually, I think it was a bit of a box office dud. It is not on the Indie Wire uh list of the best movies in the 1970s. Uh and what is it about? Well, Max Dembo, convict, is released from prison. He tries to go straight, and he fails. And chaos ensues. There you go. There you go. Uh that's kind of a simplistic take on it, but we'll talk more about it. Um so before we get into the film and what we can talk about in this movie, we have to get to the most important part of the podcast, the part that everybody looks forward to every week with bated breath. Jonathan, straight time. Is this a good movie? Is this a bad movie? Or is this a great movie?
SPEAKER_01Uh once again, I have sort of a new category from us. There we go. We're going to slot this one in as near great. Uh great titles. I don't think I can go all the way to great, but great is a very high bar for me. I'm thinking about baseball players who had excellent kind of 15-year careers. Should they be in the Hall of Fame? No. But when you look back on the career, do you go, wow, that was a heck of a career? Yes. And so that's how I feel about this movie. It's it's excellent. It's so strong in so many ways. I just watched it again for the first time in many years, and I was impressed because it was even better than I remembered. And, and this is very important, it is pretty much what we want from the movies, or at least it's what I want from the movies, in terms of what it is, how it's executed, what it has to say, how it's done. Still, I I I'm not I'm not sending it to Cooper's Town.
SPEAKER_00Now that's interesting because I kind of agree with you on this one, actually. Um, I kind of want to say great too. I'm not sure I'm I'm it's it's that at that level, but this is a damn fine movie. Damn fine movie. You need a new there's a category. There's a category. This is a damn fine movie. This is this is great 70s filmmaking. And it is anchored, let me just start off with this. It is anchored by a performance by Dustin Hoffman that I think is incredible. Just a phenomenal performance. And I gotta say, okay, I'm gonna put my cards on the table here, that when this movie, when when you mention this movie, we should see it. I th I I looked it up, I saw what it was about, and I said, Dustin Hoffman plays a ex-con. Dustin Hoffman? I'm not sure I'm buying short Jewish guy as like a sociopathic ex-convict. And yet he completely sells it. I think this is a just a remarkable performance. And I want to just give a shout out to Dustin Hoffman because his filmography in the 1970s, going back actually go back to 67, is incredibly impressive. Let's just let's just go over this really quickly. Obviously, the graduate, that is the one that he is best known for. It was his second film. Uh he did Two Years Later, Midnight Cowboy.
SPEAKER_01And I want to I know you want to do this in a list, but I want to interrupt you there because what's also incredible is that think about those two roles back to back. But but now, please continue. No, you're right.
SPEAKER_00Uh by the way, how do you feel about Midnight Cowboy? Are you a fan? Oh, I think it's a great film. Yeah, it's a great film. I agree. Uh then we've got uh John and Mary. I don't know that film, Little Big Man, uh, which I think was I think is considered a pretty good performance. I haven't seen it actually. Who is Harry Kellerman and why is he saying all these terrible things about me? Straw Dogs, a movie that David, uh Jonathan, and I um hate. We don't like that movie at all. That's we're not a fan. Uh then there's Alfredo Alfredo, Papillion, Papillon, I'm sorry, Papillon, excuse me, Papillon. Lenny, uh he plays uh as a biopic called Lenny Bruce, All the Presidents' Men, which we talked about in the first episode, Marathon Man, which you've had some requests for, and then of course Straight Time. Uh later's career, by the way, he did uh Tootsie, which I think is one of his best performances. But this actually might be the best Dustin Often performance I've ever seen.
SPEAKER_01What do you think about that? I think it's an absolutely outstanding performance. I don't know because he's such a talented actor. The when you think about the the movies that you just listed, first of all, there are many of them, going back to our theme about an actor acting, and so he was in was not a prima donna, he was in a lot of movies, but they were different roles, they were ambitious roles, and they were almost all of them with directors that he obviously wanted to work with. Even the obscurity you mentioned, John and Mary, which I don't think is a great film, but I have seen it, uh, is directed by by Peter Yates, and and on and on, if you go down the list of the directors of those movies that you mentioned, each time it's a it is a choice to kind of work with someone who, again, the the currency of the realm, the coin of the realm, has something to say. And so you have this diverse set of performances, you have the as ambitious performances, you have the prolific performances. This this performance, I think, is among the best performances he's ever given, which is quite saying something given given the list of movies that you just rattled off.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and by the the so the interesting thing about this film, uh just to step back a second, he spent apparently two years visiting prisons. Uh LA County Jail and San Quentin, which is a you know magnificent security prison in California, um trying to get a sense of what it was like to be inside, to be a to be a convict. And uh I I read this quote that I thought was so fascinating. He said, I remember more about doing that character and that performance than maybe any other film I've ever done. And he says his first priority, higher than financial success, was for con X-Con to see the film and think, quote, that's it, that that's it. That's our reality. Um and interestingly enough, he was actually first going to direct this film. Yeah. Uh and apparently he's not very good as a director because they did a the first day they did all these shots at like outside of San Quentin, which is where the movie begins. The movie begins with him being released from prison. And then he did all these wide frame shots, he didn't know what he was doing, nothing was usable, and after one day, he was like, All right, we've got to find somebody else. So they called Ulu Grossbard. And uh this is not somebody who has a really extensive filmography. He did, however, direct uh uh Hoffman in the Who is Hell, who is Harry Kellerman and why is he saying these terrible things about me? Uh but I get the impression that Dustin Hoffman was a bit of a hard ass, I think is the way to put it. At least on set, very demanding. It's interesting, Tootsie, which I think is a really funny movie and I really enjoyed it. That that character, Michael Dorsey, is like a real pain in the ass, and I think it's really based on Hoffman. Um so my guess is that you picked Grossbart because he could push him around and basically get the kind of movie he wanted to get. And I read somewhere also that he and Grossbart spent a lot of time writing uh scenes, and this movie was very improvisational. Um But yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, I want to take a different angle on both of those those elements. I think I mean maybe maybe Hoffman's direction was was clunky on on that first day, but this was a project that, as you said, he spent two years researching. It was his project. There's a labor of love, and he's throwing himself into it. And I think a kind of interpretation, I certainly wasn't there and couldn't possibly tell you, is that it was just too much uh for him to star and try and manage the burdens of of being a director at the same time. And you know, it would have been his first directorial effort anyway. So, you know, m did he suck as a director, maybe, or did he just think that he'd maybe taken on more than he could and and to protect the movie actually decided it was a mistake for him to direct it as well as star in it. And as for Grosbard, he's a slightly more interesting fellow than many give him credit for. I think the connection goes back to the fact that he was a major figure in the New York off-Broadway film uh theater community. Um, and he directed all of our friends in the 60s, and that's where he first met Hoffman, and he had a long working relationship with Robert Duvall. They were actually very close as collaborators. And so Grosbart only directs maybe nine films, and it's an uneven track record. Harry Kellerman is not a great movie. I think a later movie he did with Jennifer Jason Lee, I think, uh called Georgia, is very good. He also did True Confessions with Duvall and De Niro, but he had a really good working relationship with Duvall, but his background came from the theater, and he directed Hoffman in the theater. And I th I assume that he was someone that Hoffman had confidence in to be able to work closely with and was a capable director. But at the same time, no one is gasping at the brilliance of Grossbard's direction. And I don't mean that in a negative way, because I think the directing in this film is excellent, but it's not showy. It's it's serving the material, it's getting out of the actor's way, but it's it's quite good. The choices that are made, I think, are strong. And when you combine that with our our close personal friend Owen Roysman, you know, there's a this a lot of location work here. The photography is is really there's a lot of location work, it's beautiful photography, and that partnership between Grosbard and Roysman, and then Hoffman probably chiming in quite a bit about choices, I'm sure, I think that that works really well. But I don't think I I think it might not be right to just think of Grosbard as a hack who could be pushed around. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, I didn't mean it like that. I I just think that like, you know, Hoff this was, as you said, a a a project that Hoffman had been working on for a couple of years. They bought the rights to this book by Edward Bunker. I'm guessing he didn't want a big a director who had a big ego, a director who was going to try to put their vision on the film. I think he probably wanted somebody he could work with in ensuring that his vision for the film is what was realized. I think that's probably that's what ended up happening, it seems to me. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01And by the way, you know I don't really like to talk outside the film. You know I'm devoted to what we see in front of us. But the funniest story I read about this movie is Grovesbart and Hoffman are fighting on set, and Grosbart, who by all accounts is kind of a menchy guy, said, Look, what's more important to you, this movie or our friendship? And Hoffman says immediately, the movie. Of course. Of course he does the movie. Yeah, of course. And apparently they had a bit of a falling out afterwards, after being, you know, friends for for well over a decade before that.
SPEAKER_00Huh. Really? Well, look, I want to say in praise of Grosebart as well. I think this is a really well-directed film. I I think this is a film that uh is not showy, that reli that is um that relies on the trust of the actors. Right? There's a lot of long cuts in this film. There's a lot of um uh the camera is stationary for a lot of a lot of scenes. There's I think I think he I think he makes a lot of great choices in this film. And I think he kind of gets out of the way of the actors, out of the way of the story, and doesn't try to be ostentatious and showy. And I think you know, I think that is it's it's a bit of a contrast that we saw last week with with Spielberg. And I'm not criticizing Spielberg, you know, I love Spielberg, but he's he can be he can be ostentatious and showy at times. It's early in duel, he was ostentatious and showy, but I don't think that's the case with with Grossbart. But let's let's that this film is something I what's interesting about this film to me is that you know, I I I think I wrote you this note where I was trying to sort of figure this out. Um how do you think of this movie? Is this movie about sort of the nature of a criminal justice system? And well, actually, before I even get into that, let me step back a second and explain this. Because this is this is really a movie in two parts. Okay, the movie begins with Dustin Offman plays a character named Max Dembo. He gets out of jail, no one is there to greet him as he leaves the prison. There are others who are being met by their family. He is by himself, he takes a bus into Los Angeles, he walks around, and he is enjoying his freedom. And he quickly meets with his uh parole officer, played by M. Emmett Walsh, a wonderful character actor. Um he's been in, I mean, just dozens of films. I think most famously um Blood Simple, uh, a movie he's great in, a movie that is great. Um and uh pull officer kind of rides him a little bit. He was supposed to go to the halfway house the first night, he didn't do it, kind of gives him a hard time, but kind of lets it go. And says he says you have to get a job and find a place to live. Finds a place to live, he finds a job, and when looking for a job, he goes to a temp agency, he meets Theresa Russell, who is uh who works there, doesn't seem to enjoy her job that much and be very good at it, and they develop a bit of a romance. And then that is sort of how the movie begins. He visits his old friend Gary Busey. Um Gary Busey drives him home, does heroin in his apartment, in his motel room, he gets busted by the river officer, goes to jail, but then he gets released because he wasn't actually using the drugs, and then he freaks out at his pro officer, M. M. Walsh. Great scene. And then from that point on, it's just Max Dumbo as criminal. So it's like the first half of the movie is Max Dumbo. Dembo is trying to go straight. And the second half of the movie is Max Dembo is just going to be an armed robber because that's what he's good at and what he does. So it's really a story, a tale of two movies in a lot of respects. And I think what is to me interesting about this film is that is this a movie about the nature of the criminal justice system and how it drives criminals to commit more crime, or is it about the allure of the criminal life, people like Max, or both? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01I think what's cool about this movie and what's s very 70s about this movie is that it is kind of both. I mean, the movie does a, I think, a beautiful job of showing how the system is stacked against former incarcerees, right? So let's say you are getting out of prison and you are committed to going straight. You're still going to face a mountain of hurdles. And that's what you think the movie is about for the when you're watching it for the, I guess, the first 45 minutes before it takes that turn that you said. And one thing we haven't yet talked about is the movie is shot very much in a documentary style. And so you have all of these elements of him getting out of prison and slowly reconstructing what would be kind of a a straight life, and it's done in that observational way, and you see Hoffman's character making a real effort at it, and you know, he's wrong for not checking in as promptly as he should have with with M. Emmett Walsh. But nevertheless, you know, M. M. Emmett Walsh is the parole officer that's really riding you and giving you a hard time and not being very sympathetic. But then, of course, if you're a parole officer, there are probably, you know, there are probably a lot of difficult cases that you deal with on a daily basis. And so it's interesting the way that movie makes that sudden turn when Hoffman loses it.
SPEAKER_00But I think it's a step back and talk about the physical. Okay, fine. The parole both love to step back. See where he goes to visit him, and he and and and Walsh busts his chops for not going showing up to the halfway house. And I it's funny because uh every thick review I've read of this film portrays Walsh as like a sociopath and this awful uh parole officer. And I didn't quite see it that way. Because to my mind, he has this meeting, he doesn't show up the halfway house like he's supposed to. Okay, so that's strike one. And that's a big strike because you're on parole, you're on probation for I think it was like two or three years. You gotta you gotta play by the rules. Yeah. And you're seeing on day one, the first thing, he doesn't play by the rules. And Walsh doesn't bust him for it. He says, you know, I just want you to, you know, I it's I don't want an attitude from you. He's like, look, he says, if you can find a job and you can get a place to live, you don't have to stay at the at the halfway house. That's a pretty generous offer, actually, I thought. I thought he treats him with respect and says, like, you know, if you do what you're supposed to do, I will not ride you. And I do think that that what you like, it's interesting because the whole first half of the movie, Dustin Offman is keeping this this like very sort of stolid composure. He's trying not to show his emotions, he's trying to keep things in check. And you sympathize with him. But at the same time, he is not playing by the rules he's supposed to play by. And then later, when he lets his friend Gary Busey basically uh uh uh fix get you know, shoot up heroin at his apartment, he's he's breaking the rules again.
SPEAKER_01So I do think that like talk about that scene in depth, but let's go back to your the original, because I know what's interesting about the movies, and M. Emmett Walsh is wonderful. In fact, Roger Ebert has a rule, which he says that no movie in which M. Emmett Walsh or Harry Dean Stanton appear in can be all bad. And you've got both of them in this movie, so that's a Harry Potter. Yes. But I do I think what's interesting about our reception of it as viewers is that it's interesting that the movie opens with Hoffman breaking a rule, right? He he he he doesn't go straight to the halfway house, and so he's in the wrong. But I think when you go to the parole officer's building and you meet M. Emmett Walsh, M. Emmett Walsh is looking at the Hoffman character like, you know, here's a career criminal, and the first thing he's done is break the rule. Yeah. And so that's pretty annoying. Whereas I think in the audience, our instincts are to say, you know, well, why is M. Emmett Walsh being so mean to Dustin Hoffman? Because, you know, he's the star of the movie, and we know Dustin Hoffman, and so we're kind of with him in the narrative. We've been with him, he's the first we're with from the start.
SPEAKER_00Right. That's exactly right. But I actually looked at it, like I I watched it uh a couple times before we we we we talked today, and and I was struck by my second watch. I was really thinking to myself, like, you know, actually he handled this pretty, I thought he handled this in a way that was um, I guess kind of respectful to Hoffman and saying, look, if you're gonna if you if you disrespect me, then we're gonna have a problem. If you give me an attitude, you're gonna have a problem. If you do what you're supposed to do, we're gonna be fine. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you breaks if you do what you're supposed to do. And so he does. He does. And I think this is interesting that like your your point is so spot on. This is what I think is sort of what I really liked about that scene and this sort of opening of the movie is that, you know, you want to feel sympathy for for Dustin Hoffman. But look, it may seem like a stupid rule, but you're a convict. You're on parole. The first thing you do is break a rule. You know, that's going to get the attention of your parole officer. Sorry, just a reality. And it does speak to something about his character. He doesn't want to play by the rules.
SPEAKER_01And that's what you see in the second second half of the movie. Definitely. Although there is a big difference between the first half and the second half. And we'll talk more about his character more. But for me, the character uh uh loses a lot, in my estimation, over the course of the film. But I want to get into this Gary Busey scene. Because one of the first things that Hoffman does is he gets in touch with his old friend Gary Busey, who is married to um uh Kathy Bates. I'm pretty sure that in and of itself is a parole violation, because he's I think Gary Busey is also a former criminal, and you're not, I think, on parole allowed to affiliate uh with known quote-unquote known criminals. Although I may be basing that on old Batman episodes, so I'm 100% sure about that.
SPEAKER_00But I usually use law and order from my legal knowledge, but you apparently use Batman. That's interesting. Okay. It was very formative.
SPEAKER_01But then he ho meets Garab Usey, they go back to his room and no no no no.
SPEAKER_00You have to no no. You just talk about that dinner, we just talk about the dinner scene. Because you okay. The dinner scene is, in my opinion, one of the best scenes in the entire movie. So he Barry Usey picks him up, he takes him to his apart to his house, he is there with Kathy Bates and their son, who, by the way, was uh actually named Jake Bucey, that was Gary Bucey's son. He's an he's an actor now. And the Okay, so a couple things happen here. But the thing that I you you said a second ago, though this movie's li is really about how difficult it is uh to do straight time, how difficult it is to get out of prison and to fly right and to do the things that you're supposed to do. And there's a moment here, and I think this entire scene is like a sort of a metaphor for this movie, because you have this moment where Gary Busey is talking to his son and they're and they're and they're they're throwing punches at each other, joking around like play fighting, and then when they finish, the kid punches him in Gary Busey in the head. And Busey gets upset with him. Now, I actually didn't think the reaction was that uh over the top, right? I mean he punched him in the head, he told him, like, uh nope, we're not doing that, picked him up, put him back in his seat, said that's not acceptable, and immediately he's apologetic. Immediately he recognizes he made a mistake and he but uh to me it felt like this is how if you're a convict, if you're somebody who's been in jail, somebody who perhaps had committed a violent crime, the the there's a there's this heavy burden on you to constantly prove that you're not that person, to prove that you have changed, that you're different. And I felt like the reaction was over the top because he wanted to prove to his wife that he's not like Max Dembo, that he's not the person he once was. Right? There's like this it it I think it sort of in a very subtle way shows how hard it is for somebody who's been in jail, who's been in the criminal justice system to convince people around them that they are a different person, that they are reformed. And that can, and of course that can that can and show up in the your family members, it can be work, it can be all kinds of different ways where you have to prove yourself. But it just felt to me like the pressure that somebody in this situation is under. And I I I found it to be sort of a fascinating, like really subtle moment in the film. And what was you know even more touching about it was well, actually maybe I should just stop there and let you speak, because there's more about the scene, too, that's that's interesting as well.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell Well, see, for me, for that particular scene, I was more moved by what followed when Kathy Bates and Hoffman are alone in the kitchen. Garabies has gone off to attend to some chore with the kid maybe. No, he went off to put the kid to sleep. Yeah, it puts the kid to sleep. And she I mean, they're old friends, and she kind of very calmly gives him the don't come around here no more speech. It's it's it's quite something. I thought that was a very special moment. And and and even Ann Hoffman says, you know, that you gotta do what you gotta do, or something like that. He's very I think he acknowledges what she's saying and understands where she's coming from. I found that that quieter moment the most special part of that that that sequence for me.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, that's interesting because I I just found the whole moment with with the son and he how apologetic he was, and then he wants to take the kid out and throw the ball around with him, and Cathy's like, no, we have to go to bed. Like he wants to make up for what he did. And to me, that that just speaks to I don't know, something about just this need to have to prove that you're not the terrible person, the terrible past that you that you had. And with Cathy Bean saying this to Dembo, like, I don't want you coming around here. I mean, it also speaks to how difficult it is to live your life as a convict, right? This is his friend. They're having a really nice dinner. He's not the one who snaps at the kid, right? It's Gary Busey. But yet he's the one who's told you shouldn't come around here because you're a bad influence. I just think it it that both moments, both UC's interaction with his son. But but in her defense, she's right. Of course she's right. No, no, I'm I'm not No, she is right. But I think what's in but I think it does speak to how difficult it is in a very subtle way to be to do straight time. And this movie straight time is meant to idea of it is like to be a regular person and to have a real job and to you know not commit crimes. Okay, so then after this happens, or Gary Busey drives Hoffman back to his motel$18 a week.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Oh, speaking of the$18 a week, he when M. M. and Walsh asks him about it, he says 17. It's like Why does he do it? Because he has to lie. It's just a on principle.
SPEAKER_00He has to lie to I noticed that too, and I was like, what was that about? That's interesting he brought that up. I did notice that also. Like, that was weird. He definitely said 18 earlier. Um they go back to hotel room and beaucie fixes up. He basically and and Hoffman says to him, like, I can get three years for this, for you doing this. But does he ask him to leave? No. He locks the door, lets him lets him fix.
SPEAKER_01But you know, there's a code among there's honor among thieves here. I mean, Hoffman's line reads are s are beautiful. They're as strong as any of his line reads in the movie. He doesn't he doesn't say because you could say that line in a lot of ways. You could say, you know, I get three years for that, you know. And he says it so quietly, you know, uh I can get three years for that, as if, you know, you should know better than to do that. And he kind of turns away, but he doesn't get confrontational. He lets Busey go about his business, but he locks the door, he pulls the shade, he turns his back. And I assume that there's something about how you have to how you're expected to conduct yourself in a in a situation like that. And it's Busey who has violated whatever code of ethics they have between the two of them by putting his friend in danger like that. I agree. But Hoffman, I think, does what he understands as his necessary for him to do in that situation, which is to just, you know, put up with it and try and make it as safe that is safe for Hoffman as as possible.
SPEAKER_00But of course, it's not safe because uh Busey leaves these matches on the floor, which which when Walsh comes to the pro comes to visit to check on his demo, he discovers these matches and he immediately busts him because he suspects that he's using. Um and this is of course where Hoffman's life sort of falls apart. His straight time, very short straight time life falls apart. He goes into jail. And by the way, the scene where he is is taken to jail, that's LA County jail, is so well done. It is. This is like great 70s filmmaking, by the way. It's it is it is raw, it is um uh um unsympath unsentimental, it's it's great. And and what's interesting to me about that scene, because he's in jail for like a week because he has to get his urine test to make sure he wasn't using, is how more comfortable Hoffman or Dumbo is in jail than when he was out doing straight.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Which he talks about over dinner with with uh his date. But I I want to double down on that, the processing scene. I mean, that's again, we talk about the documentary style. He's in there with a group of men, you know, they have to strip down, they have to shower, they then are like defumigated or whatever, and they're handed their prison garb. It's it's really done as well as you could possibly do it to show the dehumanization of being incarcerated or the process of being incarcerated. It's really I don't see how it could have been done better. It's not over the top, it's matter-of-fact. Uh but you need to. Matter-of-fact.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Right. You see that exactly. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's exactly right. It's done in a way that you you you you watch the scene and you think this is exactly what it would be like if someone was busting a parole violation uh at LA County Jail. Like that's what it feels like. It feels very much it feels very real.
SPEAKER_01Yes, but I don't think he's there for seven days because they have to wait for the results. I think the results come back in 48 hours. I think he routs there for seven days because M. Emmett Walsh lets him. And this is where I start to lose my my uh appreciation of his character.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell This is the part of the film where I find it harder to defend M. Emmett Walsh because he does appear that he leaves him there, and then you know, when he finally comes to get him and says, I'm gonna take you out of here, take you to the halfway house, and Dembo, you know, gives him this very icy glare at when they're sitting in the prison. And again, like, you know, you said your phones don't work, you couldn't have called and got me out of here earlier, and he sort of says don't give me an attitude. Now, I do wonder if like what's really happening here is that Walsh is trying to basically, you know, I don't know, show dominance, right? Show who's in charge in this relationship. I mean, this guy's gonna be on parole for a couple of years, so maybe this is part of the process. Um but what's striking to me is what happens after this. They drive out, they drive out of there, and Walsh tries to get into tell him who who we who was fixing up in his apart in his in his hotel room, who was who was using. He won't tell him, and then Dempo just fucking loses it. I mean, I wasn't that was out of nowhere. I did not see that scene coming at all. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01So that was out of nowhere, and I didn't see it coming, but I find it very understandable. I mean, what's going on in that scene is Walsh's character is showing us what he's what it's going to be like. He even uses this line. He says, you know, just between us, right? You can tell me who was texting in the room. What a load of horseshit, right? He's going to get that information right after that guy. And that's when Hoffman realizes that that's it. This is this is going to be what this guy is expecting from him. And that's that's so Hoffman snaps, he seizes control of the car, the car goes off the road, he overpowers Walsh, he handcuffs him to a chain-link fence, and this is the real because it's an echo of the humiliating kind of prison processing scene. I thought that was the the symmetry there was was really attractive because it it is it is a humiliation to go through. All the men in the prison, they don't seem actively humiliated because they most of them have been through it you know six times before. But that he does that, that he passes Walsh, I think is there to basically say, see how you like it. Uh and and I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00So let me say two things about this. First of all, just so we so for those who haven't seen the films, explain what happens. He basically tells pulls him out of the car, takes out his handcuffs, handcuffs him to a fence, and then pulls his pants down. And Walsh can't pull his pants back up. So he's like holding a hand over his genitals while yelling, and and people are calling him fatso. I mean, it's it's a pretty I mean I you feel awful, actually. It's an awful scene to witness. But I gotta say, I'm gonna step back again on this one. I get that he doesn't like that this is the relationship. But as the as the you know, the old line goes, if you don't want to do the time, then don't commit the crime. I mean, I'm only so sympathetic for Hoffman's character. Like you committed a crime, you were in jail for six years. I think it was armed robbery, he said it was. And, you know, I get you don't want to play by the rules. I get you don't want to be controlled by this guy. But guess what? That's the that's them's the shakes. There, them's them's the breaks, excuse me. And but, you know, I I I think there is look, there's an element here where like, you know, he is driven back into crime by by the fact that Walsh is acting like a jerk toward him and humiliates him. But at the same time, like you see in that scene who this guy really is. Yes. So that's you realize everything you've seen. Everything you've seen before was a facade, was him trying to hold the person you're seeing in check, and now it comes out.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and his original confrontation or his meeting with the Walsh character, he reviews the fact that you know he's been in in and out of you know, prisons or or even kind of juvenile delinquency centers for his entire life. He is 12 years old. And so, you know, yes, he's I would put it this way he's the movie shows that he's driven back to a life of crime, but it's a very short ride.
SPEAKER_00It's a very short ride. But I think what's what I look, uh you can look at this lots of different ways, and I do think that one of the points of this movie is just that, you know, the the this prison becomes a revolving door for for people like Max Dembo. But I I guess in a way, I you know, you can look at someone like Gary Busey's character, who does appear to be I mean, look, okay, he's using, that is true, but he doesn't he does appear to be trying to do the right thing, right? And you don't know if he's gonna make it or not. Of course, by the end of film, he does not make it, that's a whole other conversation. But like, you know, it's pretty obvious that this guy at Dembo is not going to be able to handle straight time.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and he becomes increasingly violent and a little a little even unhinged over the course of the second half of the movie.
SPEAKER_00So before we get to the second half movie, which is which is really fascinating, let's just talk about uh the love interest in this film, which is played by um Theresa Russell.
SPEAKER_01Theresa Russell.
SPEAKER_00Teresa Russell. I keep saying Theresa, but it's Teresa Russell. Yes. Um, no, she was 17. Oh, yeah. She was cast for this film. Yeah, she's a good one. She's very young. Um and she is I think she is amazing at this film. I think she's great. First of all, uh just an absolutely beautiful woman. Let's just be very clear. This is a beautiful woman. You do kind of have to wonder what it is that she sees in Max Dembo. She meets him at the at this temp agency. He charms her. He's very charming. He asks her out to dinner, they go out to dinner, he can't pay for dinner, she helps pay for it. But she is intrigued by him. And then when he gets into jail, she visits him in jail. Which he is very he treats her pretty poorly in that scene, I think. He's humiliated by her by her visiting him.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I mean it's not her fault, but yes, he's obviously devastated that that she has come and she's seeing him like this. Yes. And yes, she's it's she's excellent. She went on to have a wonderful career, and she was the muse of the director Nicholas Rogue and appeared in in many, many of his films. This is a very, very early performance for her. I don't know if it's her first, but it's it's well what I find interesting about it is it's so often in a Hollywood movie, someone like Dustin Hoffman, that is a, you know, unappealing person, gets to have a relationship with with a very interesting woman. I was not I did not find it stunningly implausible, which I think speaks to the movie's strength. I mean, she she does live alone, she's working this crappy job, she does seem to be intrigued. It is, you know, the 1970s out there, obviously she's she's searching for something. It didn't seem as ridiculous as these things typically do. I would phrase it that way.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell I think that's I agree with that actually. I okay. Well, let me say two things about this. I think that I the relationship on the surface doesn't make a lot of sense, but I did find it's unbelievable. She I mean, look, there's women in in in the world. world and who you want to fix men. And you know, you look at we we'll talk later about Harry Dean Sand's character. He's married to somebody who clearly wants to try to fix men and fails ultimately. But but I think I I don't even know if that's her what's what's what's driving Cosa Russell. I think it's almost that she's kind of bored and she and this is sort of he's exciting and he's interesting. And she kind of wants something I I don't know. There's something about the relationship that's kind of exciting for her. I gotta say one thing though about her character which I think maybe this is a counterintuitive take. I kind of felt like her purpose in the film is almost it doesn't really soften Dembo's Dembo uh Hoffman's character at all. I don't find it like making him uh a different person. I don't see him changing any of his behavior because of this relationship until the final scene of the movie. Right which is almost we're not going to go over that yet. But I do think what's interesting about her character is that I I think she almost exists for that scene. Which is weird to say because I do think that I do think the relationship is important. Maybe you disagree disagree with I don't feel like it it sh it has a huge impact on him as a as a person. But you tell me what you think I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01I do want to defend her character's choices a little bit. Again I think she's in this dead end job she's in this relatively uninteresting apartment. I imagine the dating pool that she has to deal with is not that interesting. And also Hoffman does have a certain charisma and they do this little piece of business because she's it's a job employment agency and so she puts him through a series of modest tests. He flunks the typing test but he comes out above average on the IQ test, right? So we're told that that we're told that he's intelligent and we're told that she knows he's intelligent. So there are things about him that are interesting and then also most people don't know career criminals. So she may know he's had this difficult past or he committed a crime and did time and is now out but she may not process fully just how dangerous a person that he is and he also one of the few admirable things he does is when she asks him questions about what's going on, he he doesn't answer and he doesn't answer mostly for her protection. Right? He says where you've been well I did some things, you know so why are your clothes dirty? You know I I had to break through a wall. I had to break through a brick wall yeah but he says you know you don't want to know these things. And he said I thought that was reasonable.
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus That's reasonable but he also does say to her this is who I am I don't say I don't want to hurt you but like this is who I am this is what I'm going to do. And if you're okay with that then we can continue to hang out together. What's interesting about it is like you might s I you might assume he'd soften or he might try to like go go straight because because of her there's none of that. Like once he once he pants M M M. Walsh he is back on the path of criminality No it's worse than that.
SPEAKER_01He increasingly unsoften right his series of interactions with people becomes harsher and harsher. So like one of his early contacts is with a manager of a you know a nightclub or a bar or something Manny and their first interaction you have a Seinfeld joke to share with us about Manny but but their first interaction is borderline warm. There's a relationship between the two men and then later when Manny kind of lets him down when they're going to participate in a robbery he lashes out violently against Manny. I was more shocked by that actually than by the uh the pants. I mean that's a sudden burst of you know he reaches into the car and it's like shocked he's getting increasingly agitated.
SPEAKER_00Like see now what I think see this is why I wasn't shocked by it because what's obvious what what's gets obvious to me with the pants is that this is a violent, this is an impulsive violent person. And first of all he grabs the he grabs the steering wheel he he he you know gives an elbow the gut to Walsh almost I don't know how he doesn't kill him on the highway driving the driving the car. Like it's an incredibly violent act and almost primal in in the in the violence. And so I just from that point on I'm sort of just my expectation is that this is okay this is a violent person.
SPEAKER_01Sure but Manny's this parole I mean whatever MMA Walsh says parole officer Manny's his friend.
SPEAKER_00That's true. By the way Manny is uh just so we I want to just so we can get this uh out of the way is played by a uh Sandy Barron who's a comedian and I was watching the film and I'm like I know this guy where do I know this guy from so I had to look it up Wikipedia this was Jack Klumpus from the Seinfeld Yes yes he was the guy with the famously gave the pen exactly the astronaut pen he gave him the pen. And of course Jerry should have taken the pen because he was his favorite pen. But yeah right up right upside down. So that was the whole thing. So yeah Jack Klumpus that who that's who that is absolutely this episode. But so so yeah he beats up Manny and actually Harry Dean Stanton his friend he meets up with his friend Harry Dean Stanton who and this by the way this is the other sort of tent pole scene of the movie. God there's so many great scenes in the movie this scene is so good. He goes his friend Harry Dean Stanton who um it and he was living pretty he's a former convict living a pretty good life. Yeah he's got a pool he's got a pool all right he's got a girlfriend who's making him um yeah uh burgers and the barbecue you know yeah they look they look delicious actually and this is an incredible thing the scene is so good like they go through this whole thing about like just you know he's with this with this uh girlfriend and his girlfriend who by the way seems to have knows other convicts so I think she's yeah has experience dating convicts like she's as I mentioned before she's she's the character seems like she wants to uh save these these men who do terrible things and you know they're at the having uh this nice meal together and she gets up and he Terry D Stan looks at demo and he says get me out of here get me yes I know you're planning something I know you've got something up your sleeve get me away from this like this straight life for him is killing him he hates it it's such a fascinating moment of the film because you look at around him you think this is great this is great. You've turned your back on your life of crime and all he wants to do is get back into being giving crimes again.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus And that is another one of the suggestions of the movie that there is a subset of people who you know aren't going to fit into that kind of normal society even in the in even in a way or in a role that most of us would say hey that's that's looking pretty good. But I want to take this opportunity that scene that you like so much to to give a shout out again to to Grosebard's work here. Because it's not showy at all but it the pool is in the background and they're sitting at like a little picnic table sharing these burgers. I checked this twice and I think I'm right. I think that's a one shot I think it's about three minutes. I think he just holds the camera and the three of them are in in focus and he lets the scene play. It's not show it's not show offy. It's not a show offy one shot it's just that here's the scene here's how we've blocked the action and we can see these three characters have their conversation she goes in and out of the action but he just holds the camera there and it's it's very effective in terms of letting letting the story unfold in front of us.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well actually the end of the scene there's a dolly shot right it goes up into the air and you see it from above. I'm still wrestling with whether I think that's motivated or not oh interesting. What do you mean explain that what do you mean?
SPEAKER_01Well that is so I was just praising Grosebard for not showing off right he's holding the camera there. I don't think the audience is noticing that he's holding the camera there. It's just the most effective way to give us that scene. And then at the end of the scene he pulls the camera back and it is noticeable and it's a little dramatic. It's not crazy swoopy dramatic, but it's it's a it's a very self-referential camera move. Right. And so either he's showing off or there's a function to it. And if you want to reach for it you might say that it's a a decision point you know between the two the the Harry Dean Stan character and the Holly character. Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_00But that I I I it's a fair point. It's it might be a little show offy. But I want to say in defense of Grossbart that like that's defending him. I'm I know you did I know you I know you did I know you did I'm gonna go even further to his defense here. Because both in that scene and also the scene with Gary Busey and his son, he holds the camera steady. Yeah. The camera is stationary. And I I and the the actors you know it's like a play almost actors are given their chance to play their roles and again that's what I talk about sort of trusting the actors to be able to carry the scene and not try to like you know overdo things and he doesn't and it works beautifully and so again I think this is something that he does very effectively in the movie. It's one again not ostentatious one of the reasons why it works.
SPEAKER_01But it also might reflect you know his background strength which is in how he comes from theater. And so yeah that's true that's getting out of the actor's way is is is something that comes naturally I think to a theater director.
SPEAKER_00Right. Now so okay so so from this point forward Dembo and Harry Dean Stanton's character have start committing crimes. And the first thing they do is they rob a bank and it's a really interesting scene because you see Stanton as a completely different person. Yes super violent super aggressive and what's interesting about the scene is that he is holding a stopwatch and saying time we have to get out of here it's time time and Hoffman keeps trying to like take more money out of the bank. Yes. And there's a great moment afterward they're in the truck and Hoffman is laughing and saying you cost me$8,000 we could have gotten more money. He's not really joking. He's actually ticked off about this. And this is the moment when Harry Dean Sand should have been like this guy is a loose fucking cannon.
SPEAKER_01I think the movie does a great job showing the escalation of Hoffman's almost mania in this regard. Yes because you've really got four crimes if I have the sequence correct he he needs some cash he robbed a bodega we did talk about the robbing the the the convenience store for I think he does the first one and that's pretty straight robbery.
SPEAKER_00You know he he's he he's you know as as robbing a bodega goes he you know he seems on the job and he's saying for the record by the way one thing that you see when you when you as we watch these films, boy, it's a lot easier to commit armed robbery in the 70s than it is today. Absolutely technology has ruined armed robbery.
SPEAKER_01It is armed robbers one of them but he's pretty he does that the way a normal criminal would be he puts on the hat and then he goes and basically robs the place. Trevor Burrus Right and the second crime is the unrequited crime they're staking out a high stakes poker game they want to rob the pot they know what's there and that's the one where he punches his friend and the the window for robbing the game has closed and Harry Dean Stan's character knows that but Hoffman's character doesn't care. He says let's and Harry almost has to physically restrain him from trying to execute this robbery after the train has left the station. And then you have the bank robbery and yes he leaves something before the bank robbery pawn shop.
SPEAKER_00What happened after the after he that's burglary. Okay it's burglary button he drives by the pawn shop he sees a shotgun in the window breaks into the store next door uh and then he goes breaks through the wall to get to think but but the point of that scene that I think is fantastic is that he grabs a shotgun and when he's holding it he's almost like uh he's overwhelmed he's overcome with emotion at holding this this amazing shotgun in his hand you watch you think he's actually humming to himself when he when he takes it off the wall so that's the other crime that he commits and then yes then the bank right and that's when it's an extension of the non-robbery of the poker game.
SPEAKER_01As you already said Hoffman stays too long. You got a plan. You have so many minutes to be in the bank you take what you can get and you go. As an audience member you're screaming at you know at the movie get out of the bank you've been there as long as you can be there for. And you know of course you're rooting for the bank robber which is what movies do to you and so you don't want them to get have the police to come and have them get caught and he lingers and that's just a warm-up for the jewelry store robbery which is you know timed down to the second you know this is exactly what we have to do. We have exactly this much time. They've taken jewels that we know are worth scores of thousands of dollars.
SPEAKER_00It's time to go and Hoffman will not leave and that's a concept tries to rip a ring off of somebody's finger like he's so desperate to get everything he can get it's ridiculous. But before we get to that jewelry scene the moment the before that you know when Hoffman tries to convince or successfully he successfully convinces Stanton to rob the jewelry Stanton doesn't want to do it. Doesn't want to commit the crime doesn't want to get involved in Beverly Hills thinks it's too much thinks they're overstepping and Hoffman the way he weasels his way into convincing him he basically is like you liked holding that shotgun the bank didn't you you liked you like the way you felt you liked that power that you felt didn't you and that's what convinces Stanton to go along with it. And it is to me it is just so emblematic of how these guys are criminal criminals. They get off on the excitement of committing crime. It's like the scene like with before when when when Stanton's sitting in his in his lovely pool having burgers and he says get me out of here I don't feel alive when I'm doing this I feel alive when I'm robbing a bank or robbing a jewelry store. And actually what's really funny about Stan's character is that he keeps saying to like Hoffman like this is you're what you're doing is unprofessional. Like this is not the way you're supposed to rob banks and what's interesting about this thing where he has Vincent robbed the jewelry store is like after what happened in the bank when he wouldn't get out in time, like that should have been the sign that like this is not a guy you want to be robbing anything with. This guy is trouble, big big trouble. Don't get away from this guy he's gonna get you killed which by the way he does get him killed. Right? He goes they go rob a jewelry store which but he and Teresa Russell they they he takes her there as if she wants to buy something but really he's just case in place.
SPEAKER_01And and that's a beautifully done scene. I think it's also one shot which is kind of observational and natural naturalistic set there and because he kind of goes from station to station in one of those jewelry stores where different you know little setups have different areas of specialization. And so that's that's I thought that that scene was handled very, very deftly and again not showy, but nevertheless it's just a very capable director knowing what to do with the camera in in that situation.
SPEAKER_00And then they agree when they come so they go and see he convinces Harry Dean Sand to rob the jewelry store, they go and they rob it and of course this is like the I mean it's sort of a bit of a trope like the first robbery goes well the second one you know it never does. And uh and it doesn't go well because well first of all two things happen. So first he um we should mention this actually this is important. Earlier in the film he visits a guy uh who is a character played by uh Edward Bunker the man who wrote this the book this is based on he was a career criminal been in jail for for a long time I think he was an armed I think he was a he committed an armed robbery. You know what they say right what you know right which exactly right what you know and he uh became a a writer in in prison and he wrote quite a few books I think about his experience as a criminal he is to most people probably best known regarding Reservoir Dogs he was Mr. Blue in uh in reservoir dogs uh he was he is he's killed in the in the the robbery they commit but it's it's off screen um heathman visits bunker's character he introduces some some kid who who could who he thinks can be a driver uh for this this job robbing the jewelry store and uh the kid is not available so what does Hoffman do he calls uh Gary Busey right and this is again red flag it is huge red flag they get somebody in this is by the way I think I feel like I feel like uh Michael Mann stole so much from this film when he did heat because this is exactly what happens in heat right the the the the driver doesn't show up they got to find somebody new you find somebody last minute and you know it it's there's a lot of overlap here. Even the thing where they count off the time in the bank when they're robbing it is something that is also in heat. And again as I mentioned before Michael Mann worked on this on the screenplay. So but that's the thing like when they're robbing the jewelry store Busey is outside waiting and Stan is furious that they have this new driver he thinks this is bad news but goes along with it again of course and then he's waiting outside for them to come out of the bank and Hoffman takes forever in the jewelry store. As we discussed yes it's unbearable takes unbear it's unbearable to watch because you know as this is happening like you you just know like this is a freaking disaster. Like you are you're basically um like screwing yourself. No I was already upset that Gary Busey was my getaway driver to begin with. I mean you should have been upset about that he gets out they run out of the bank and of course Busey has left and wouldn't can you blame him? The alarm had gone off for several minutes they didn't show up I mean it's worth it's reasonable to believe that they something happened to them. They they weren't coming out like I Busey I I I'm not going to criticize him for that. I mean you kind of think of yourself in this situation. So then Stanton and Hoffman run away Stanton gets shot by the police officer Hoffman shoots the police officer and so now he needs to get away and that whole scene you can feel the sense of impending doom you know that taking forever here is going to lead to disaster and it does and it's really well done so unnecessary right they they if they just took the 90 seconds they planned they would have gotten away with a fortune. Exactly but they would have gotten away to get away with a fortune and a half right that's right it's it's it's completely necessary and it and and so what did you I mean I was a little bit surprised but I mean I guess he's just as you said earlier there's like a mania that takes over him. Yes where he he cannot step away from from these crimes where he can't he he just he has to like see it all the way through I suppose.
SPEAKER_01Yeah as as we mentioned earlier this is this is not a character who softens over the course of the film it's a character who who hardens over the course of the film Yeah he really does it really does.
SPEAKER_00Except at well before we get to the end something else happens we need to talk about he visits Beusey he's not happy with you obviously yells at him gets upset and then gives a big hug and as he's giving a big hug choose her kills her. Yes kills her how did you feel about that scene? Did you think it was necessary for the movie? I don't know.
SPEAKER_01It's a very on the one hand if you're the getaway driver and even if they're taking longer than they should, if you depart, you've really kind of violated your your agreement with your comrades. And so again you get back to this honor among the death penalty offense though? No I mean of course it's not it's not for me to say I'm a professor. I don't spend as much time in the underworld as as a lot of people do. But it but you know what's going to happen. I mean so if and since you know it's going to happen then there must be some part of us that knows that this is this is the price you pay. I mean when when he went to Gary Busey's first of all they're they're fleeing. He's collected uh Theresa Russell and they're going to flee. And then he says oh wait a second I gotta stop and ask a man about a horse or something ridiculous.
SPEAKER_00Yeah right right right and he goes and he sees Gary Busey and from the minute he steps into the garage you know he's going to murder him right so I you know what I didn't know that actually I I was a little surprised by it because like he's a violent person but he's not a murderer. Like you don't right he beats up Jack Columbus character, right? He beats him up but I don't f I didn't get the sense that he would kill a man in cold blood the way he shoots Busy.
SPEAKER_01So here's why I think in Movie Land uh this is okay which is that in the context of the plot and we don't do spoiler alerts here so we're gonna spoil. You know, I think you already mentioned it as they are trying to escape Harry Dean Stanton is gunned down and dies. Right. So whose fault is that? By the law by Dust by by Dustin Hoffman's character's logic, Gary Busey is directly responsible for Harry Dean Stanton's death. Harry Dean Stanton is dead because Gary Busey didn't didn't didn't stay where he was supposed to stay. And so in that sense there you're balancing the scales of justice.
SPEAKER_00Now that is one way to look at it but the problem with that is that it's not Gary Busey's fault it's Dustin Hoffman's fault. It is entirely Dustin Hoffman's fault by the way I would say for Gary Busey I think is great in this movie. I really do I think he's wonderful and I I had looked this up he was actually this 78 he was also nominated for best actor for this performance in the Buddy Holly story Oscar nomination. But he um he keeps saying I'm sorry I'm sorry and you realize that that this poor guy is just a fuck up he really is just a fuck up and you you can't I mean you can't hate him you feel sorry for him you realize that he can't help himself he's just he's just he's just he's born under a bad side he just he's he's unlike Lucky and he makes bad decisions. And but I will say this like he kind of is the root of all of that bad things that happen to Dembo, right? He shoots he shoots up in his apartment, which ends up getting getting Dembo busted, which you know then leads to the pantsing of Emmett Walsh, and he drives away. But in both the situations, ultimately it's Dembo's decision will cost him. He lets him shoot up in his apartment, right? He freaks out at Emmett Walsh. He uh waits too long to leave the jewelry store, which causes Busy Bucy to drive away. I mean, everything that that that you says that's bad is really a i it the Dembo has some culpability here as well.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell The jewelry store thing you know drove me absolutely crazy, but I think you have a better command of this movie than I did. I got the impression that he took some of the fall for Bucy's character, though. Well, no. And so he did harder time because he did give him up.
SPEAKER_00Well Yeah, I I mean but not initially, but uh only when they're in the car and Wall says who was fixing up in your. It's like as a big thing. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01I think there's a backstory about Hoffman's six-year incarceration. I could be wrong about this. That that was a crime he committed with Busey and he didn't. Oh, I didn't c oh I didn't catch that. That's possible. I may be wrong. That was something that I thought I heard when I I only have seen this movie twice, so I I can't say it with the Okay.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting. I don't I did not catch that, but it's possible that that's what happens. But I just think in general, but look, all I'm saying is that you know, he shoots Busey because he drove away, but like if he was introspective, and you don't believe criminals to be that introspective, I mean, especially at sociopathic criminals like Dustin Auffin's character is in this movie, to you know. But if he was introspective, he would realize that it was his fault. He got Harry Dean Stanton killed. Definitely. He got he got him killed. It was his he dragged him into this crime that Stanton did not want to commit, that he thought was a bad idea, and then he waits too long. And I mean, don't forget, like in the scene, like Stanton is yelling at him like we all hear. Yes, we all exactly. So I I think 90 seconds. 90 seconds. So here's what's I know, right, exactly. He said he had the stopwatch, big red stopwatch all around his chest. He was yelling out the numbers. But the thing that's interesting about it, I mean, it it's so unnecessary to kill Gary Bobby. Of course. There's no need for it. You could orphan his son. The guy is a fuck-up, he's trying to go right, you shouldn't have got involved in this crime in the first place. He's not a getaway driver. Like, you just it's so needless of a crime. What is gained by doing this? So you avenge Harry Dean's Denton and he's still dead? What it's it's pointless.
SPEAKER_01What you're gaining by it is the withdrawal of sympathy from Hoffman's character.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01Because this the the urge, the urge for us to to love the anti-hero. We see so many movies with criminals in which they only kind of kill people who, for one reason or another, had it coming. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Deserved it, had it coming. Right, right, right, right. The bad guy. They only kill bad guys. Okay. Exactly. But this, you know, this is, you know, as you say, it's a cold-blooded murder. And so we we we have to stare that in the face because uh the power of the movies is we're with Dustin Hoffman in the movie. He's our guy. I mean, and and so we we we kind of rise and fall with him. And so it's it's it's tough on the audience. So the appeal of the murder. I'm surprised I'm defending this murder. But but that's that's where we are now.
SPEAKER_00Jonathan, you are now defending murderers. What has happened to you? But the Trump era has been just terrible for your moral character.
SPEAKER_01But again, the appeal of it is it it takes away any veneer that we can somehow have a charismatic anti-hero that we're allowed to root for.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I don't see here's the thing. You don't need the murder to take that veneer away. And I have to say I really enjoy this movie. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: My support for the murder. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's fine, it's fine. I just I found the the murder uh I mean, I guess it makes sense, but I didn't I don't know if I thought it was a hundred percent necessary. The way you say it, where it removes that veneer of of sympathy, yes, there is true. And and look, there is something to be said for the fact that Hoffman does have like this kind of sense of a code. I mean, he does beat up Manny, which seems awful, but Manny also screwed up, didn't come in time, didn't bring the shotguns like he was supposed to, didn't bring the guns. Right. And so he so you get you screw up by that, you get a beating. I I guess, I don't know, I'm not a criminal, I guess that's how it works. I mean, you, you know, the guy fixes up in your apartment, you let him do it, and when the ballister asks who did it, you don't rat on the guy. I mean, I guess there is, you can sort of see elements of him adhering to a code. It felt out of character to me that he would like care that much about this sort of code, but you know, I guess maybe he does. And you're right, it also takes away that that veneer of caring. But then the end of the movie, so he drives away with Theresa Russell, they they drive out of LA, they stop at some little cafe, and he takes out, takes out actually a watch that he that she liked at out of the from the jewelry store heist, gives it to her, and then makes this decision very sort of matter-of-factly and says, You need to go back to LA. You need to leave. Yes. And the line he uses, it's it's it's a great line. She says, why? And he says, I'm going to get caught.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Why can't I come with you? And he says, Because I'm going to get caught. And again, it's another one of these very low-key line reads that is one of his best one of his best line reads in the movie.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's you're absolutely right. It just speaks to I I I cannot say enough about this performance by Dustin Hoffman. Uh I, you know, I know he's a wonderful actor, but this is such a a grounded, uh, you know, um well constructed kind of performance that really that presents a character in art that is so nuanced, even though this guy is like a sort of sociopath. Yeah. Like he you because the first half of the movie you can sense that simmering tension inside of him. And the second half you can see it emerging. But this is the thing though. Right. When he says to her, You need to leave and I'm gonna get caught, it's the one the only selfless act he commits in the entire movie. Right. I mean, it's the first time he does it maybe in his life. And what's interesting also, here's a question I have though about that line. Does he say he's gonna get caught because he knows he's gonna get caught or because he wants to get caught?
SPEAKER_01Huh. I when I was watching the movie, I assumed he just knew he was going to get caught.
SPEAKER_00Um I think it's in I I think it could go either way. I I think that one thing that comes across to me is that when he's in jail in that brief scene in the beginning the middle of the movie, he seems more comfortable and more aware of his surroundings and more able to function around this community of men than when he is in the straight world.
SPEAKER_01Yes. No, and at their first dinner, uh I think he's he even says, expresses that sentiment directly that for a lot of uh people in prison it it's more stressful. You know, you prefer to be out of prison, but it's it's more stressful to kind of navigate the the quote unquote free world than it is to navigate the the terrifying world of of being within the prison because you know, what does he say? The in the prison you are who you are, but in in in the world you have absolutely no kind of control of what's going on. That line from that dinner scene with the two of them probably came from from the author of the book, uh Bunker. But we haven't given a shout out to uh Alvin Sargent, the co-writer. His next film after this was Ordinary People. He had a very good career, wrote a lot of good movies. One thing we haven't said over the course of of our discussion, which is coming soon to a close, I imagine, um, is I think this is an extremely well-written movie. And so I just want to give a little hat tip to Alvin Sargent there. It's Bunker's story, it's Bunker's book, but the polish of a really well-crafted screenplay and a lot of the dialogue, surely that that comes to from Sergeant's strengths as a as a screenwriter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. And uh, you know, uh look, we both said we both said this is a near great, really fine film. I I it's so close to being great. It might be great. It might be. It it's I I gotta be honest, I I didn't know much about this film before I watched it, and I was just really impressed with it. I thought it was just such a well-done movie, so well crafted, so many good performances. Yeah, you're right, beautifully written, like directed very competently is not generous enough. Very effective, short-handedly directed. Um, and I think a lot, there's a lot of meat on the bone of this movie. There's a lot, there's a lot to wrestle over here. And I think that final scene where he says, like, I know I'm I know I'm gonna get caught, like I really do think part of me just felt like he kind of wanted to go to jail because that's where he was most comfortable. That's where he was most able to function. And you know, it's interesting because the movie ends with these um uh mugshots of him from when he's in jail, uh going back to when, you know, I guess more recent one to when he was a teenager.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And you can't you kind of get the sense that like it's like that line from you know Shawshank Redemption about being institutionalized, and you can't you can't a movie I'm sure that you hate, by the way. Uh it's a little heavy hand uh I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01My take on that movie is too much Shawshank and not enough redemption.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. You know the thing, okay. I know I'm getting off on a tangent here. But makes you crazy about that movie is that the end of the movie is Tim Robbins, who's supposed to be the the the warden, right? Takes his clothes, goes to the banks, gets all the money. Yeah. Tim Robbins is like six feet five. The warden is like five feet eight. There is no fucking way he could wear the man's suit. So that just annoys me. But that's a that's a point, that's a digression. There is a good line about in Shaw Shanghair Damps about someone being institutionalized. And I do think that that is there's some element to that of Dembo's character, that he just cannot function in the straight world. And in fact, in some ways, none of these guys can, which is a really depressing uh element. I mean, it would have been good, I think, a movie not good, but the interesting movie had shown one person who did go straight. But it doesn't. It doesn't. Everybody, like even Edward Bunker's character, he's not really involved in crime anymore, but he's facilitating, if you will. So there is it there the that's very bleak. I mean, the idea is like that once you're a criminal, you're kind of always a criminal. It's it's not the most uplifting um uh takeaway. Sure, but you know, it's the 70s out there. Exactly. It's the 70s, it's New Hollywood, it's to be expected. Uh all right, I think uh I think we've kind of hit everything we wanted to hit about this movie. I I gotta say, if you haven't seen this movie, watch it. It's great. I I'm a huge fan of it. And as somebody who has never been like a uh I would say Dust often's like a go-to actor for me, I came away from this movie really, really impressed. And I'll tell you interestingly, we talked about doing Lenny a couple of months ago. Uh and I watched it and I was kind of like, eh, eh, I don't really buy him as Lenny Bruce. I I didn't it didn't do a lot for me. But I think in this movie, it's just a standout performance. It's one of the best performances that we've seen of a movie that we've talked about so far.
SPEAKER_01It's a great performance. Uh and we I would also add that it means something that the project was so important to Hoffman. And I also want to say, in in in some defense of Lenny, I again I want to look at those dozen roles that Hoffman played over this period, and there's not a single one that's like the other. Uh and I mean that's really No, it's really true.
SPEAKER_00That's a great point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we're the thing about him as a performer.
SPEAKER_00No, that's a great point. I I I think that's fair. Like you think of all the President's Men or um uh I guess even Little Big Man, or I mean some of these movies I which I've not seen, but I know a little bit about what the movie's about. Like you're right. These are all very unique performances, and they speak to his range as an actor. Um this is something that, again, I thought he couldn't pull off. Maybe this is why that what why the movie didn't do so well. People didn't see the Dustin Alfman as a convict, but he pulls it off. Uh well, you know my take.
SPEAKER_01I I think this movie didn't do so well because it was 1978, and if it came out in 1974, I think it would have been more appreciated in in that moment. The new Hollywood is is fading, you know. 1977, you got your you got your Star Wars there, man, you know. 78. What's what's what's left?
SPEAKER_00I know, it's true. It's true. All right. I think we're gonna finish up there. Listen, for next episode, we can actually tell you what we're gonna do because this is very exciting. Um there is a uh this is a wonderful theater in Europe called the Paris Theater. Uh it's beautiful, large theater. And they they show great movies there. And they are showing tomorrow night, Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf? Which I have on this podcast talked at great length and which I love that movie, and which I love Elizabeth Taylor and that movie. I think she is phenomenal. And it is, as we will discuss next week, a 70s film, even though it was made in 1966. 66. So prepare yourself. You can watch It's a Frame Virginia Wolf, get ready for the next episode before he comes on the air. And uh in the meantime, please buy us a cup of coffee. Why not? Come on, it's just a cup of coffee. We, you know, your appreciation is what we do here, so just buy us a cup of coffee. No big deal. Right, ask you to subscribe. You can do that if you want to, but sure. And above all, tell us what you think, tell us what you're enjoying about this. But here's one more thing I'm gonna ask you to do. Tell a friend. Okay? There's no better way to promote a creative uh uh uh exercise like this podcast than word of mouth. So if you like this podcast, you enjoy what we do here, tell a friend. Say, hey, you know what? You might like this podcast. Jim or Susan, or I don't care what their name is. Just tell them, hey, you know what? You might like this. We'd appreciate it. In the meantime, keep the comments coming and keep listening. We love it, uh uh having you here. Love the all the great comments we get from people, and um, you know, we'll see you next week. Thanks a lot. Bye bye.